5782. 'And Judah said' means a perception imparted to the good of the Church in the natural. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perception, dealt with often (it is an imparted perception because all perception comes from the internal, that is, it flows in from the Lord by way of the internal, 5779); and from the representation of 'Judah' as the good of the Church, dealt with in 5583, 5603, 5775. Regarding Judah's representation, it should be recognized that in the highest sense he represents the Lord as regards His Divine Love, and in the internal sense His celestial kingdom, see 3654, 3881, and so the celestial kind of love there. Here therefore the good of love present with the Church in the natural is meant because now it exists among those who represent things in the natural which are to be joined to the internal.