5142. 'And he said to Joseph' means the perception of the celestial within the natural. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying', in the historical narratives of the Word, as perception, often dealt with already; and from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial within the natural, dealt with in 5086, 5087, 5106.

5105. 'And there is no interpreter for it' means that no one knows what they hold within them. This is clear from the meaning of 'the interpretation' as the explanation of what something holds within it, dealt with above in 5093, and so of what those dreams held within them.