6075. 'Both we and our fathers' means that this was so since the time of the ancients. This is clear from the meaning of 'fathers' as those who belonged to the ancient Churches, dealt with in 6050. In the Word there are many places referring to the Jews and Israelites in which their fathers are spoken of in a praiseworthy manner. People who confine themselves to the sense of the letter do not take 'fathers in those places to mean anybody other than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and also the sons of Jacob. But in the internal sense 'fathers', in a good sense, is used to mean not them but those who belonged to the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood and those who belonged to the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood. Members of both were called 'fathers' because the Church came down from them and things of the Church were derived from them.

[2] 'Fathers' is used in Moses to mean those belonging to the Ancient Churches,

Your fathers Jehovah delighted to love, and He chose their seed after them. Deuteronomy 10:15.

And in the same author,

Remember the days of old, understand the Years of generation after generation. When the Most High gave to the nations an inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel. But when Jeshurun became fat he forsook God. They sacrifice to demons, to gods [whom they do not know, to new ones] that have come from near by and that your fathers did not fear. ¹ Deuteronomy 32:7-8, 15, 17.

These words appear in the prophetical Song of Moses, in which verses 7-15 refer to the Ancient Church and Verses 15-44 to the descendants of Jacob. The state of the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood is meant by 'the days of old', and the state of the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood by 'the years of generation after generation'. Their state of good is meant by 'an inheritance which the Most High gave to the nations', and their state of truth by 'the Most High separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel', which 'number', being 'twelve', means all the truths of faith in their entirety, see 577, 2089, 2129 (end), 2130 (end), 3272, 3858, 3913. From this it is evident that 'fathers' means those who belonged to the ancient Churches. A similar meaning exists in the following places:

In Isaiah,

Our holy house, and our splendour, where our fathers praised You, has been made into a blaze of fire. Isaiah 64:11.

In Jeremiah,

Did not your father eat and drink, yet execute judgement and righteousness? Then all went well for him. Jeremiah 22:15.

In the same prophet,

They have sinned against Jehovah, the habitation of righteousness and the hope of their fathers. Jeremiah 50:7.

In David,

O God, we have heard with our ears, our fathers have told us the work You worked in their days, in the days of old. Psalms 44:1.

'Fathers' is used in the same way in Daniel 11:14, 37-38. The fact that those who belonged to the ancient Churches are meant in these places by 'fathers' is not apparent in the sense of the letter; it is seen only from the internal sense in which the Church, its forms of good, and its truths are the subject. Furthermore the Church itself - being the heavenly marriage, that is, the marriage of goodness and truth - is called 'father' in the Word in respect to goodness and 'mother' in respect to truth, 3707, 5581.

Footnotes:

1259. There is something further to be said about 'nations' meaning goods and evils within worship: In most ancient times people dwelt distinguished into separate nations, families, and houses, as stated already, in order that the Church on earth might represent the Lord's kingdom where all people are distinguished into communities, those communities into larger ones, and these into still larger, all these distinctions existing according to general and specific differences of love and faith, about which see 684, 685. Thus the Lord's kingdom is similarly distinguished so to speak into houses, families, and nations. This is why 'houses, families, and nations' in the Word means the goods that stem from love and its derivative faith, where also a careful distinction is made between nations and people. 'Nation' means good or evil, but 'people' truth or falsity. And this distinction is preserved so consistently as never to vary, as becomes clear from the following places:

[2] In Isaiah,

There will be on that day the root of Jesse which is standing as an ensign of the peoples; towards that root the nations will seek to go, and his rest will be glory. On that day the Lord will extend His hand a second time to acquire the remnants of His people, who remain from Asshur, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah. Isaiah 11:10-12.

Here 'peoples' stands for the truths of the Church, 'nations' for its goods, between which a clear distinction is made. The subject here is the Lord's kingdom and the Church, and in the universal sense every regenerate person. The names mentioned mean the things that have been described already. 'Israel' means the spiritual things of the Church, 'Judah' its celestial things. In the same prophet,

This people walking in darkness have seen a great light. You have multiplied the nation, You have increased its joy. Isaiah 9:2-3.

Here 'people' stands for truths, hence the reference to 'their walking in darkness and seeing a [great] light'. 'Nation' stands for goods.

[3] In the same prophet,

What will one answer the messengers of the nation? That Jehovah has founded Zion, and in her the wretched members of His people will put their trust. Isaiah 14:32.

Here likewise 'nation' stands for good, 'people' for truth. In the same prophet,

Jehovah Zebaoth will swallow up on this mountain the face ¹ of the covering, of the covering over all peoples, and the veil that is spread over all nations. Isaiah 25:7.

This refers to a new Church, that is, the Church of the nations. 'People' stands for its truths, 'nations' for its goods. In the same prophet,

Open the gates that the righteous nation that keeps faith may enter in. Isaiah 26:2.

Here 'nation' plainly stands for goods. In the same prophet,

All the nations will be gathered together, and the peoples will be assembled. Isaiah 43:9

This too refers to the Church of the nations. 'Nations' stands for its goods, and 'peoples' for its truths. And since the two are distinct and separate from each other, both are dealt with; otherwise it would be a pointless repetition. In the same prophet,

The Lord Jehovih said, Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations and raise My ensign to the peoples; and they will bring your sons in their bosom and carry your daughters on their shoulder. Isaiah 49:22.

This refers to the Lord's kingdom, 'nations' again standing for goods, and 'peoples' for truths.

[4] In the same prophet,

You will break out to the right and to the left, and your seed will inherit the nations, and they will dwell in the desolate cities. Isaiah 54:3.

This refers to the Lord's kingdom and to the Church called the Church of the nations. That 'the nations' stands for goods that stem from charity, or what amounts to the same, for people with whom the goods of charity exist, is clear from the promise that their 'seed', or faith, 'will inherit them'. 'Cities' stands for truths. In the same prophet,

Lo, I have given Him as a witness to the peoples, a Prince and Lawgiver to the peoples Lo, you will call a nation you do not know, and a nation that knew you not will run to you. Isaiah 55:4-5.

This refers to the Lord's kingdom. 'Peoples' stands for truths, 'nations' for goods. In the Church those who are endowed with goods that stem from charity are 'nations' while those who are endowed with truths of faith are 'peoples'. For goods and truths are attributes of the subjects to which they apply. In the same prophet,

Nations will walk to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Then you will see and overflow, and your heart will be astounded and enlarged, because the abundance of the sea will be turned to you, the armies of the nations will come to you. Isaiah 60:3, 5.

This refers to the Lord's kingdom and the Church of the nations. 'Nations' stands for goods, while 'kings', who go together with 'peoples', stands for truths.

[5] In Zephaniah,

The remnants of My people will plunder them, and the residue of My nation will inherit them. Zephaniah 2:9.

In Zechariah,

Many peoples and numerous nations will come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem. Zechariah 8:22.

'Jerusalem' stands for the Lord's kingdom and for the Church, 'peoples' those with whom the truths of faith predominate, 'nations' for those with whom the goods of charity do so, and therefore they are mentioned separately. In David,

You will deliver me from the strivings of the people; You will set me as the head of nations. A people whom I have not known will serve me. Psalms 18:43.

Here similarly 'people' stands for those with whom truths predominate, 'nations' for those with whom good does so. And because these are what constitute the member of the Church, both are mentioned. In the same author,

The peoples will confess You, O God, all the peoples will confess You; the nations will be glad and exultant, for You will judge the peoples with uprightness, and You will guide the nations into the land. Psalms 67:3-4.

'Peoples' clearly stands for those with whom truths of faith predominate, and 'nations' for those with whom the good of charity predominates.

[6] In Moses,

Remember the days of old, understand the years of generation after generation; ask your father and he will show you, and your elders and they will tell you, When the Most High gave to the nations an inheritance and separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. Deuteronomy 32:7-8.

This refers to the Most Ancient Church and the Ancient Churches, which are respectively 'the days of old' and 'the years of generation after generation'. Those with whom the good of charity predominated were called 'the nations' to whom an inheritance was given. 'The sons of man' and in the next sentence 'the peoples' mean those with whom the truths of faith deriving from charity predominated. Since 'the nations' means the goods of the Church and 'the peoples' its truths, it was therefore said of Esau and Jacob when they were still in the womb,

Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples will be separated from your bowels. Genesis 25:23.

These places now make clear what the Church of the nations is in the genuine sense. The Most Ancient Church was the true Church of the nations, as was the Ancient Church after that.

[7] Since those governed by charity are called 'nations' and those governed by faith are called 'peoples', the Lord's priesthood is therefore associated with 'nations' because it has reference to celestial things, which are goods, while His kingship is associated with 'peoples' because it has reference to spiritual things, which are truths This distinction was also represented in the Jewish Church in which they were 'a nation' before they had kings, but became 'a people' after they received them.

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