5150. 'And Joseph answered and said' means revelation resulting from perception received by the celestial within the natural. This is clear from the meaning of 'answering and saying' as revelation resulting from perception, dealt with above in 5121; and from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial within the natural, dealt with in 5086, 5087, 5106. The reason 'Joseph' here means the celestial within the natural is that the natural is the subject. With regard to the celestial and the spiritual, the celestial itself and the spiritual itself which flow into heaven from the Lord's Divine reside principally in the interior rational, for the forms there are more perfect ones and apt receivers. Even so, the celestial and the spiritual also flow from the Lord's Divine into the exterior rational, and into the natural too, doing so both indirectly and directly. They flow indirectly by way of the interior rational, and directly from the Lord's Divine itself. What flows in directly is that which brings order, and what flows in indirectly is that to which order is brought. This is what happens in the exterior rational, as also in the natural. From this one may recognize what the celestial within the natural is.

[2] The celestial has its origin in Divine Good and the spiritual in Divine Truth - both having their origin in the Lord. When they exist in the rational they are called the celestial and spiritual within the rational, and when they exist in the natural they are called the celestial and spiritual within the natural. The rational and natural are used to mean the person himself insofar as he has been formed to receive the celestial and spiritual; but the rational is used to mean his internal and the natural his external. By reason of what flows into him, and depending on his reception of it, a person is called a celestial man or else a spiritual man - a celestial man if the Lord's Divine Good is received in the will part of his mind, a spiritual man if it is received in the understanding part.

5121. 'And Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perception, dealt with in 1791, 1815, 1819, 1822, 1898, 1919, 2080, 2619, 2862, 3509, 3395, in this case as revelation resulting from perception, since the subject is a dream and its interpretation, and all revelation is either the result of talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks or else the result of perception, dealt with below; from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial within the natural, dealt with above in 5086, 5087, 5106; and from the meaning of 'the interpretation' as what it held within it, also dealt with above, in 5093, 5105, 5107. From this it is evident that 'Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it.

[2] With regard to revelations resulting either from perception or from talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks, it should be recognized that people who are governed by good and from this by truth, especially those who are governed by good flowing from love to the Lord, receive revelation as a result of perception. But those who are not governed by good or from this by truth can indeed receive revelations, but not those that are the result of perception, only those which come to them through a voice which they hear speaking within themselves and so through angels from the Lord. This kind of revelation is external, whereas the other kind is internal. Revelation resulting from perception is the kind that angels, especially celestial ones, receive. It was also the kind received by members of the Most Ancient Church, and by some members of the Ancient Church too; but scarcely anyone receives such at the present day. Very many people however, including those who have not been governed by good, have received revelations from conversations [with angels] which did not involve any perception, the same as with those receiving revelations through visions or through dreams.

[3] Most of the revelations received by the prophets in the Jewish Church were of this kind - they heard a voice, saw a vision, or dreamed a dream. But because they had no perception these were merely verbal or visual revelations which did not involve any perception about what was really meant by them. For genuine perception comes from the Lord through heaven; it fills the understanding with spiritual ideas and leads it, as may be perceived, to think along the lines of, and inwardly to recognize, the true nature of a thing. The source of that power of recognition is not known, but the understanding imagines that it begins within itself and springs from the interconnected ideas it has present within itself. But in fact that power is a dictate coming from the Lord by way of heaven into the interior parts of ones thought regarding the things that are above and beyond the natural and the senses, that is, the kinds of things that belong to the spiritual world or heaven. From all this one may see what revelation resulting from perception is. But the revelation resulting from perception which the Lord, who is represented here by 'Joseph', had - which revelation is the subject here in the internal sense - sprang from the Divine within Himself, and so originated in Himself.