4670. 'A son of seventeen years' means His state. This is clear from the ages measured in years of people mentioned in the Word - spiritual realities and states are meant by them, as these are by all other numbers. For all numbers in the Word have spiritual realities and states as their meaning, see 575, 647, 648, 1988, 2075, 2252, 3252, 4264, 4495, as also do years, 487, 488, 493, 893.

[2] It does indeed seem as though numbers of years, or ages measured in years, mean nothing else than numbers of years. This is because these numbers more than any others have so to speak a more specific historical application. But these numbers too include spiritual realities and states within them, as is clear from the applications given at Genesis 5 and from what has been stated at Genesis 17:1 and Genesis 25:7 about Abraham's age and at Genesis 35:28 about Isaac's. The same is clear in addition from the fact that no historical detail exists anywhere in the Word which does not include within it something heavenly into which it is also changed when it passes from the thought of the reader to the angels present with him, and through those angels into heaven where the spiritual sense rises up out of every historical reference in the Word.

[3] But what is meant by Joseph's being seventeen years old may be seen from the meaning which this number has elsewhere, namely a beginning, in this case the beginning of the representation through Joseph. As to its meaning a beginning and that which is new, see 755, 853. What is more, this number includes within itself in a general way, and so to speak potentially, all the things that are represented by 'Joseph' - 'seven' meaning that which is holy and 'ten' remnants. For 'seven' when used in the Word adds holiness to any meaning, see 881, while 'ten' means remnants, 576, 1906, 2284. The remnants present in the Lord were Divine and His own, and by means of them He united the Human Essence to the Divine Essence, 1906.

2129. There are also other types of tumults, or rather of conflicts, which also convey the idea of a Last Judgement and by which communities harmfully joined together as regards their interiors are dissolved. Concerning them let the following be mentioned: Such spirits are driven into a condition in which they do not think in their normal way as a community, that is, one with another, but each one independently. As a result of their thinking, each at variance with the others, and of each muttering something different from the rest, an uproar is produced which sounds like that of many waters; and conflict with one another takes place such as defies description which arises out of the mishmash of opinions concerning firmly established truths, which are at the time the substance of their thoughts and speech. That mishmash is such as may be called spiritual chaos.

[2] The sound of these conflicting and confused uproarings was threefold. The first flowed in around the head, and I was told it was that of thoughts. The second flowed in towards the left temple. I was told that this was a conflict of reasonings about certain truths in which they were unwilling to pin their faith. The third flowed in from above over on the right. It was rasping though less confused, a rasping sound directed first this way, then that. I was told that this was the product of truths clashing which were being turned this way and that by means of reasonings. While these conflicts were going on there were other spirits who spoke to me, telling me in speech that rose clearly above all that noise the meaning of every single thing.

[3] The matters which they reasoned about were chiefly these - whether the statement that the twelve apostles were going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel was to be understood literally, and also whether other people who have endured persecution and affliction were to be allowed into heaven. Each one reasoned in accordance with what had taken his fancy during his lifetime. Some of them however who had been brought back into associations with one another and into order were then informed that those descriptions were to be understood in a completely different way, that is to say, that 'apostles' is not used to mean apostles, nor 'thrones' to mean thrones, nor 'tribes' tribes, nor indeed is 'twelve' used to mean twelve. Instead apostles, thrones, tribes, and also twelve, meant the first and foremost matters of faith, 2089. They also said that such matters of faith are the starting-point and the criteria from which everyone is judged. And over and above all this they were shown that the apostles have no power to judge anyone at all, and that all judgement is the Lord's alone.

[4] As regards the second point which they reasoned about, this should not be taken to mean that only those who have endured persecution and affliction will enter heaven, but that the rich no less than the poor will do so, those who have held important positions no less than those whose position has been humble. Furthermore the Lord takes pity on all, especially on people who have endured spiritual afflictions and temptations, which are persecutions by the evil, thus on those who acknowledge that of themselves they are wretched and who believe that it is through the Lord's mercy alone they are saved.