569. Loose the four angels that are bound at the great river Euphrates.- That this signifies reasonings from fallacies pertaining to the sensual man, which were not received before, is evident from the signification of the angels at the river Euphrates, as denoting reasonings from fallacies which are in the sensual man, of which in what follows. And because reasonings from fallacies were not received in the church before, therefore those angels are said to be bound at that river, and are said to be four from the conjunction of falsity with evil, for this number, in the Word signifies the conjunction of good and truth, and in the opposite sense, as here, the conjunction of evil and falsity; see above (n. 283, 384, 532). In the preceding verses the sensual man, who is in the falsities of evil, and the result of the persuasions in which the sensual man is, were treated of, therefore in what now follows, reasonings from the Sensual are dealt with. And because the Sensual reasons only from such things as, in the world, are manifest to the senses, it does so from fallacies, called fallacies of the senses, when it reasons concerning spiritual things, that is, concerning the things of heaven and the church, and therefore it is here said, reasonings from fallacies pertaining to the sensual man; but concerning these fallacies and reasoning from them, more will be said in what follows.

[2] The subject here treated of is the state of the church at its very end, and such state exists when the men of the church, having become sensual, reason from the fallacies of the senses; and when they reason from these concerning the things of heaven and the church, then they absolutely believe nothing, because they understand nothing. It is a thing known in the church, that the natural man does not perceive the things of heaven, unless the Lord flows in and enlightens him, and this takes place by means of the spiritual man; much less can the sensual man [understand and believe], because this is the ultimate of the Natural, to which the things of heaven, called spiritual things, are altogether in thick darkness. Genuine reasonings concerning spiritual things exist from the influx of heaven into the spiritual man, and thence through the rational into the knowledges (scientiae) and cognitions that are in the natural man, by which the spiritual man confirms itself. This method of reasoning concerning spiritual things is according to order. But the reasonings of the natural man and still more of the sensual man concerning spiritual things are altogether contrary to order; for the natural man, and still less the sensual man, cannot flow into the spiritual man, and from itself see any thing there, since physical influx does not exist. But the spiritual man can flow into the natural, and thence into the sensual, for spiritual influx does exist. But upon this subject more may be seen in the Doctrine of the New Jerusalem 51, 277, 278).

[3] From these considerations it is clear that the meaning of the things which now follow, is that at the very end of the church man speaks and reasons concerning spiritual things, or concerning the things of heaven and the church, from the corporeal Sensual, and thus from the fallacies of the senses, consequently, that although he then speaks in favour of Divine things, yet he does not think in favour of them. For man can, from the body, speak differently from what he thinks in his spirit, and the spirit, which thinks from the corporeal Sensual, cannot do otherwise than think contrary to Divine things; but still from the corporeal Sensual he can speak in favour of them, and especially because Divine things are the means of acquiring honours and gain. Every man has two memories, a natural memory and a spiritual memory, and he can think from both, from the natural memory when he speaks with men in the world, but from the spiritual memory when he speaks from his spirit. A man, however, rarely speaks with another from his spirit, but only with himself, which is to think. Sensual men cannot speak or think from their own spirit with themselves otherwise than in favour of nature, consequently in favour of things corporeal and worldly, because they think from the Sensual, and not from the Spiritual, they are even altogether ignorant of what the Spiritual is, because they have closed their spiritual mind, into which heaven flows by virtue of its light.

[4] But let us proceed to explain the signification of the words, the voice which was heard from the horns of the golden altar, saying to the sixth angel, that he should loose the four angels that were bound at the river Euphrates. The river Euphrates signifies the Rational, and therefore reasoning also. The reason of this signification of that river is, that it divided Assyria from the land of Canaan, and by Assyria, or Ashur, is signified the Rational, and by the land of Canaan, the Spiritual. There were three rivers which formed the boundaries of the land of Canaan, in addition to the sea, namely, the river of Egypt, the river Euphrates, and the river Jordan. The river of Egypt signified the knowledge (scientia) of the natural man; the river Euphrates signified the Rational pertaining to man, and derived from knowledges (scientiae) and cognitions, and the river Jordan signified entrance into the internal or spiritual church. For the regions on the other side Jordan where the tribes of Reuben and Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh had inheritances allotted to them, signified the external or natural church, and because that river was between those regions and the land of Canaan, and afforded a passage, therefore it signified entrance from the external church which is natural, into the internal church which is spiritual. This was the reason that baptism was there instituted, for baptism represented the regeneration of man, by means of which the natural man is introduced into the church, and becomes spiritual.

[5] From these considerations the signification of those three rivers in the Word is clear. All the places too which were outside the land of Canaan, signified such things as pertain to the natural man, whereas those which were within the land of Canaan signified such things as pertain to the spiritual man, thus those which pertain to heaven and the church. Those two rivers, therefore, the river of Egypt, or the Nile, and the river of Assyria, or Euphrates, signified the terminations of the church, and also introductions into the church. Cognitions also and knowledges (scientiae), which are signified by the river of Egypt, introduce, for without cognitions and knowledges (scientiae), no one can be introduced into the church, nor have a perception of those things which pertain to the church. For the spiritual man, by means of the rational, sees its spiritual things in knowledges, as a man sees himself in a mirror, and acknowledges itself in them, that is, its own truths and goods, and moreover confirms its spiritual things by cognitions and scientifics, both by those which are known from the Word, and those which are known from the world.

[6] But the river of Assyria, or the Euphrates, signified the Rational, because by means of it man is introduced into the church. By the Rational is meant the thought of the natural man from cognitions and knowledges, for a man who is imbued with knowledges (scientiae) is able to see things in a series, from primaries and mediates the ultimate, which is called the conclusion, consequently, he can analytically arrange, reflect upon, separate, conjoin things, and at length form conclusions upon them, even to that ulterior end and at length to the ultimate which forms the use that he loves. This then is the Rational, which is given to every man according to uses, which are the ends that he loves.

Because everyone's Rational is according to the uses of his love, therefore it is the interior thought of the natural man from the influx of the light of heaven; and because man by rational thought is introduced into spiritual thought, and becomes a church, therefore that river signifies the Natural introducing.

[7] It is one thing to be rational, and another thing to be spiritual; every spiritual man is also rational, but the rational man is not always spiritual; the reason is, that the Rational, that is, the thought thereof, is in the natural man, but the Spiritual is above the Rational, and by means of the Rational passes into the Natural, into the cognitions and scientifics of its memory.

[8] But it must be observed, that the Rational does not introduce any one into the Spiritual, but it is so said, only because it appears to be the case. For the Spiritual flows into the Natural by means of the Rational, and thus introduces. For the Spiritual is the inflowing Divine, it is the light of heaven, which is the proceeding Divine Truth. This [light] flows through the higher mind called the spiritual mind, into the lower mind called the natural mind, and conjoins this to itself, and by means of that conjunction causes the natural mind to form one with the spiritual. Introduction is thus effected. Since it is contrary to Divine order for man by his Rational to enter into the Spiritual, therefore in the spiritual world there are angelic guards to prevent this taking place. It is therefore evident, what is signified by the four angels bound at the river Euphrates, and afterwards what is meant by loosing them. By the angels bound at the river Euphrates, is signified guard lest the Natural of man should enter into the spiritual things of heaven and the church, for were this the case there would be nothing but errors and heresies, and at length negation.

[9] In the spiritual world there are also ways that lead to hell, and those that lead to heaven, likewise, ways which lead from spiritual things to natural, and thence to things sensual; and also in those ways guards are placed, lest any one should go in a contrary direction, for he would thence lapse into heresies and errors, as just stated. Those guards are placed by the Lord in the beginning when the church is being established, and are also maintained lest the man of the church, from his own reason or understanding, should introduce himself into the Divine things of the Word, and thence of the church. But in the end, when the men of the church are no longer spiritual, but natural, and many utterly sensual, and there being no way from the spiritual man into the natural with the man of the church, then those guards are removed, and the ways are opened, and being opened, they go in a contrary order, which is brought about by reasonings from fallacies. Hence it comes to pass that the man of the church can speak with the mouth in favour of Divine things, while in heart he thinks contrary to them, or he can speak in favour of them from the body, and think contrary to them from the spirit; for reasoning concerning Divine things from the natural and sensual man produces this effect. The signification of the four angels bound at the river Euphrates and of their being loosed is now evident from these things.

[10] That the river Euphrates signifies the Rational, by means of which there is a way from the spiritual man into the natural, is clear from the following passages in the Word.

Thus in Moses:

"Jehovah made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Genesis 15:18).

These words, in the sense of the letter, describe the extension of the land of Canaan, but in the internal sense, the extension of the church from its first to its final boundary; its first boundary is the Scientific, which is of the natural man, the other boundary is the Rational, which is of the thought. The Scientific which is of the natural man, is signified by the river of Egypt, or the Nile, and the Rational, which is of the thought, by the river of Assyria, or Euphrates; to these two the spiritual church, signified by the land of Canaan, extends itself, and similarly the spiritual mind of the man of the church. The Scientific and the Rational are both in the natural man, one limit of which is the scientific and cognitive [faculty] (scientificum et cognitivum), and the other is the intuitive and thinking [faculty] (intuitivum et cogitativum), and into these limits the spiritual man flows when it flows into the natural man. The conjunction of the Lord with the church by means of these is signified by the covenant which Jehovah established with Abraham. But these things are signified by the above words in the internal sense, while in the highest sense the union of the Divine Essence (Divine Essentiae) with the Human of the Lord is meant. These words are explained according to that sense in the Arcana Coelestia 1863-1866).

[11] So in Zechariah:

"His dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth" (9:10).

Similarly in David (Psalm 72:8).

These things are said concerning the Lord and His dominion over heaven and earth. By dominion from sea even to sea, is signified the extension of things natural, and by dominion from the river even to the ends of the earth, is signified the extension of things rational and spiritual; see also above (n. 518).

[12] So in Moses:

"The land of the Canaanites, and Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates. Behold, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land" (Deuteronomy 1:7, 8).

And again:

"Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours; from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be" (Deuteronomy 11:24).

So in Joshua:

"From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea, the going down of the sun, shall be your coast" (1:4).

In these passages the extension of the church from one boundary to the other is described, one of which pertains to the cognitive and scientific [faculty] and is signified by Lebanon and the sea, and the other pertains to intuition and thinking [faculty], and is signified by the river Euphrates. The extension of the land of Canaan denotes the extension of the church, for by the land of Canaan in the Word, is signified the church. The river is twice mentioned, namely, the great river, the river Euphrates, because by the great river is signified the influx of things spiritual into things rational, and by the river Euphrates, the influx of things rational into things natural, thus by both, the influx of things spiritual through the Rational into things natural.

[13] So in Micah:

"This is the day in which they shall come even to thee from Assyria, and unto the cities of Egypt, and thence from Egypt even to the river, and to sea from sea, and from mountain to mountain" (7:12).

The establishment of the church among the Gentiles by the Lord is described by these words. "This day" signifies the Lord's coming; the extension of the church among them from one end to the other is signified by "they shall come from Assyria, and unto the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt to the river." The extension of truth from one end to the other is signified by to sea from sea, and the extension of good by from mountain to mountain.

[14] In David:

"Thou hast caused a vine to go forth out of Egypt; thou hast cast out the nations and planted it, thou hast sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river" (Psalm 80:8, 11).

By the vine which God caused to go forth out of Egypt are meant the sons of Israel, also the church is signified, for a vine signifies the spiritual church, which church was also signified by the sons of Israel. And because the church is called a vine, it is therefore said, "Thou hast planted it; thou hast sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river," by which is described the extension of the spiritual things of the church, the sea denoting one extremity thereof, and the river, which means the Euphrates, denoting the other. By the Euphrates, which was the fourth river that went out of Eden (Genesis 2:14), is also signified the Rational, for the garden in Eden, or Paradise, signifies wisdom. The signification of the three other rivers may be seen explained in the Arcana Coelestia 107-121).

[15] Because the river Euphrates signifies the Rational, therefore, it signifies, in the opposite sense, reasoning. Reasoning here means thought, and argumentation from fallacies and falsities, but by the Rational are meant thought and argumentation from knowledges (scientiae) and truths. For every Rational is trained by knowledges (scientiae), and formed by truths, wherefore he who is led by truths, or whom truths lead, is called a rational man. But a man who is not rational can reason, for by various reasonings he can confirm falsities, and also induce the simple to believe them, and this is principally done through the fallacies of the senses, concerning which more will be said below.

[16] This reasoning is signified by the river Euphrates in the following passages:

"Now what hast thou to do with the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Shihor? or what hast thou to do with the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?" (Jeremiah 2:18).

These words signify, that spiritual things must not be investigated by means of the scientifics (scientifica) of the natural man, nor by reasonings therefrom, but by means of the Word, thus out of heaven from the Lord. For those who are in spiritual affection, and thought thence, see the scientifics of the natural man, and the reasonings therefrom, as it were, below them, but no one can see spiritual things from the latter, for lower things may be viewed on all sides from higher ground, but not conversely. To investigate spiritual things by means of the scientifics of the natural man, is signified by "what hast thou to do with the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Shihor?" And by reasonings therefrom is signified by "what hast thou to do with the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?" Egypt and its river signify the scientifics of the natural man, and Assyria and its river signify reasonings from them.

[17] So again, in Isaiah:

"In that day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, in the passages of the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet; and it shall also consume the beard" (7:20).

These words refer to the state of the church at its end, when the Lord was about to come. That reasonings from falsities, would then deprive the men of the church of all wisdom and spiritual intelligence, is described by the above words. Such reasonings are signified by "by the king of Assyria, in the passages of the river," that is, the Euphrates. The deprivation of spiritual wisdom, and of intelligence thence, is signified by the hair of the head and of the feet being shaved with a razor that is hired, and by the beard being consumed. For hairs signify natural things into which spiritual things operate, and wherein they close, therefore in the Word they signify the ultimates of wisdom and intelligence, the hair of the head signifies the ultimates of wisdom, the beard signifies the ultimates of intelligence, and the hair of the feet, the ultimates of knowledge (scientia). Without these ultimates, things prior can no more exist than a column without a base, or a house without a foundation. That those who have deprived themselves of intelligence by reasonings from fallacies and from falsities, appear bald in the spiritual world, may be seen above (n. 66).

[18] Again, in the same prophet:

"Behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river strong and many, the king of Assyria, and all his glory; and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks; he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over" (8:7, 8).

These words signify, that in the church the Word generally and in all its details, will be falsified by reasonings based on fallacies and falsities. The waters of the river, strong and many, the king of Assyria, signify reasonings from pure fallacies and falsities. He shall come up over all his channels, and over all his banks, signifies, that the Word generally and in all its details will be falsified. By Judah, which he shall overflow and pass through, is signified the church where the Word is, thus the Word.

[19] So again, in Jeremiah:

"Against the army of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, who was by the river Euphrates, which Nebuchadnezzar smote. They have stumbled and fallen toward the north by the bank of the river Euphrates" (46:2, 6).

These words signify the destruction of the church and its truths by false reasonings from scientifics; by the river Euphrates are signified false reasonings. By Egypt and the army thereof are signified confirmatory scientifics; by the north where they stumbled and fell, is signified whence those falsities arise. This passage also is more fully explained above (n. 518:38).

[20] Again, in the same prophet:

Jehovah told the prophet to go and buy a linen girdle and put it upon his loins, but not to put it in water; then that he should go to the river Euphrates and hide the girdle there in a hole of the rock; and he went and hid it by the Euphrates. "After the end of many days, Jehovah said, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence"; and he went and took it, "and behold the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing. As the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel, and the whole house of Judah, that they might be unto me for a name, for a praise, and for a glory, but they did not hear" (13:1-7, 11).

These things represented the quality of the Israelitish and Jewish church and its subsequent state. The girdle of linen which the prophet put upon his loins signifies the conjunction of the church with the Lord by means of the Word; for a prophet signifies doctrine from the Word, and the girdle upon the loins of the prophet signifies conjunction. The falsifications of the Word through evils of life and by falsities of doctrine, and the reasonings thence which favour them, are signified by the girdle being marred in the hole of the rock at Euphrates. For the conjunction of the Lord with the church is by means of the Word, and when this is perverted by reasonings which favour evils and falsities, then there is no longer conjunction, and this is meant by the girdle being profitable for nothing. That this was done by the Jews, is evident from the Word both of the old and of the new testament; from the Word of the new testament, that they had perverted all things written in the Word concerning the Lord, and also all the essentials of the church, and that they had falsified them by their traditions.

[21] So again, in Jeremiah:

"When thou hast made an end of reading this book, thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates; and thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise again" (51:63, 64).

By the book of the prophet which he read, is specifically meant that Word which was in that book, but in general, the whole Word. By his casting it into the midst of Euphrates, is signified, that the Word, in process of time through the reasonings which favour evils, would be falsified by those who are meant by Babylon, Babylon denoting those who adulterate the Word.

[22] Again, in Isaiah:

"Jehovah shall devote the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with the vehemence of his wind shall he shake his hand over the river Euphrates, and shall smite it into the seven streams, and make men go over dry shod. Then there shall be a high way for the remnant of his people which shall be left from Assyria; like as it was to Israel when he came up out of the land of Egypt" (11:15, 16).

These words signify that all falsities, and reasonings therefrom, shall be dissipated before those who are in truths from good from the Lord, or who belong to the church, and that they shall, as it were, pass safely through the midst of them. This is the case in the spiritual world with those whom the Lord defends. The same thing is here meant by the drying up of the Sea Suph (Red Sea) before the sons of Israel; those who shall pass through under the protection of the Lord are signified by the remnant of the people which shall be left from Assyria, those left from Assyria denoting those who have not perished by reasonings from falsities. The meaning of the following passage in the Apocalypse is similar:

"The sixth angel poured out his vial upon the river Euphrates, and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings who are from the east might be prepared" (16:12).

These words will be more fully explained below in their proper place.

[23] From these things, it is now evident, that the river Euphrates signifies the Rational, by means of which the spiritual mind enters into the natural [mind], and that, in the opposite sense it signifies reasoning from fallacies and from falsities. It must however be observed, that reasonings are in the same degree as the thoughts, for they descend from them; thus there are reasonings from the spiritual man, which however must be called rather conclusions from reasons and from truths; there are reasonings from the natural man, and also from the sensual man. Reasonings from the spiritual man are rational, therefore they must be called rather conclusions from reasons and from truths, because they are from the interior and from the light of heaven; but reasonings from the natural man concerning spiritual things are not rational, however much they may appear to be so in moral and civil matters, which appear before the eyes, for they are from natural light alone. But reasonings from the sensual man concerning spiritual things are irrational, because they are from fallacies, and thence from false ideas. It is this last class of reasonings that is now here treated of in the Apocalypse.

35. I shall here add the following account of an experience. ¹

Once I was amazed at the huge number of people who regard nature as the source of creation, and therefore of everything beneath or above the sun. When they see anything they say, and they give it heartfelt acknowledgment, 'Surely this is due to nature'; and when they are asked why, they say that this is due to nature rather than to God, when they still sometimes follow the usual view that God created nature, so that they could just as well say that what they see is due to God rather than to nature, they reply muttering almost inaudibly to themselves, 'What is God but nature?' This false belief that nature created the universe, a piece of madness they take for wisdom, makes them so puffed up that they look on all who acknowledge that God created the universe as ants, creeping along the ground, treading a worn path; and some as butterflies flying around in the air. They call their dogmas dreams, because they see things the others cannot, and they say: 'Who has ever seen God? We can all see nature.'

[2] While I was wondering at the immense number of such people, an angel came and stood beside me, saying 'What are you thinking about?'

I replied, 'How many people there are who believe that nature produces itself and is therefore the creator of the universe.'

'The whole of hell,' the angel told me, 'is composed of such people; there they are called satans and devils. Those who have formed a firm belief in nature and consequently denied the existence of God are satans; those who have spent their lives in crimes and thus banished from their hearts any acknowledgment of God are devils. But I will take you to the schools in the south-western quarter where such people who are not yet in hell live.'

So he took me by the hand and guided me. I saw some cottages containing schools and one building in their midst which seemed to be their headquarters. It was built of pitch-black stones coated with glassy plates giving the appearance of glittering gold and silver, rather like the stones called selenites or mica. Here and there were interspersed shining shells.

[3] We went up to this building and knocked. Someone quickly opened the door and made us welcome. He hurried to a table and brought us four books, saying: 'These books contain the wisdom which the majority of kingdoms approve to-day. This book contains the wisdom favoured by many in France, this by many in Germany, this by some in Holland, and this by some in Britain.' He went on: 'If you like to watch, I will make these four books shine before your eyes.' Then he poured forth and enveloped the books in the glory of his own reputation, so that at once the books shone as it were with light. But this light immediately vanished from our sight.

We asked him then what he was now writing. He replied that at present he was bringing out of his stores and displaying the very kernel of wisdom. This could by summarised as: (1) Whether nature is due to life, or life to nature; (2) whether a centre is due to an expanse, or an expanse to a centre; (3) about the centre and expanse of nature and life.

[4] So saying he sat down again at the table, while we strolled around his spacious school. He had a candle on the table, because there was no sunlight there, but only moonlight. What surprised me was that the candle seemed to roam about and cast its light; but because the wick was not trimmed it gave little light. While he was writing, we saw images of different shapes flying up from the table on to the walls. In that night-time moonlight they looked like beautiful birds from India. But as soon as we opened the door, in the sunlight of daytime they looked like nocturnal birds with net-like wings. They were apparent truths turned into fallacies by adducing proofs which he had ingeniously linked into coherent series.

[5] After seeing this we approached the table and asked him what he was now writing.

'My first proposition:' he said, 'whether nature is due to life or life to nature.' He remarked that on this point he could prove either proposition and make it appear true. But because of some lurking fear which was not explicit, he dare only prove that nature is due to life, that is to say, comes from life, and not the reverse, that life is due to, that is, comes from nature.

We asked politely what was the lurking fear he could not make explicit.

He replied that it was the fear of being called by the clergy a nature-worshipper and so an atheist, and by the laity a person of unsound mind, because both parties are either believers from blind faith or people who see that it is so by studying supporting arguments.

[6] Then our zealous indignation for the truth got the better of us and we addressed him thus: 'My friend, you are quite wrong. Your wisdom, which is no more than an ingenuity of style, has led you astray, and your desire for reputation has induced you to prove what you do not believe. Do you not know that the human mind is capable of being raised above the objects of the senses, that is to say, the thoughts engendered by the bodily senses; and when it is so raised it can see the products of life at a higher level and the products of nature below? What is life but love and wisdom? And what is nature but a receiver of love and wisdom, a means to bring about their effects or purposes? Can these be one, except as principal and instrumental? Light surely cannot be one with the eye, nor sound with the ear. What is the cause of these senses if not life, and what is the cause of their shapes if not nature? What is the human body but an organ for receiving life? Are not all its parts organically constructed to produce what love wills and the understanding thinks? Surely the body's organs spring from nature, but love and thought spring from life. Are these not quite distinct from each other? Raise the view of your mind a little higher, and you will see that emotion and thought are due to life; that emotion is due to love and thought to wisdom, and both of them are due to life, for, as has been said before, love and wisdom constitute life. If you raise your intellectual faculty a little higher still, you will see that love and wisdom could not exist unless somewhere they had a source, and that this source is Love Itself and Wisdom Itself, therefore Life Itself. These are God, who is the source of nature.'

[7] Afterwards we talked with him about his second proposition, whether the centre is due to the expanse, or the expanse to the centre. We asked his reasons for discussing this subject. He replied that it was in order to enable him to reach a conclusion about the centre and expanse of nature and life, which one was the source of the other. When we asked his opinion, he made the same reply as before, that he could prove either proposition, but for fear of losing his reputation he proved that the expanse was due to, that is to say, was the source of the centre. 'All the same,' he said, 'I know that something existed before there was a sun, and this was distributed throughout the expanse, and this of itself reduced itself to order, so creating a centre.'

[8] The zeal of our indignation made us address him again, saying: 'My friend, you are mad.' On hearing this he drew his chair back from the table and looked fearfully at us, but then listened with a smile on his face. 'What could be more crazy, 'we went on, 'than to say the centre is due to the expanse? We take your centre to mean the sun, and your expanse to be the universe; so you hold that the universe came into existence without the sun, do you? Surely the sun produces nature and all its properties, which are solely dependent upon the light and heat radiated by the sun and propagated through atmospheres? Where could these have been before there was a sun? We will explain their origin later on in the discussion. Are not the atmospheres, and everything on earth, like surfaces, the centre of which is the sun? What would become of them all without the sun? Could they last a single instant? And what of them all before there was a sun? Could they have come into existence? Is not subsistence continuous coming into existence? Since therefore the subsistence of everything in nature depends upon the sun, so must their coming into existence. Everyone can see this and acknowledge it from personal experience.

[9] Does not what is later in order subsist, just as it comes into existence, from what is earlier? If the surface were earlier and the centre later, should we not have what is earlier subsisting from what is later - something which is contrary to the laws of order? How can the later produce the earlier, or the more outward the more inward, or the grosser the purer? How then could the surfaces making up an expanse produce a centre? Anyone can see that this is contrary to the laws of nature. We have drawn these proofs from rational analysis to show that the expanse is produced by the centre, and not the reverse, although everyone who thinks correctly can see this for himself without these proofs. You said that the expanse of its own accord came together to form a centre. Did this happen by chance, that everything fell into such a wonderful and amazing order, so that one thing should be on account of the next, and every single thing on account of human beings and their everlasting life? Can nature inspired by some love and working through some wisdom have ends in view, foresee causes and so provide effects to bring such things about in due order? Can nature turn human beings into angels, build a heaven of them, and make its inhabitants live for ever? Accept these propositions and think them over; your idea of nature begetting nature will collapse.'

[10] After this we asked him what he had thought, and still did, about his third proposition, about the centre and expanse of nature and life. Did he believe that the centre and expanse of life were the same as the centre and expanse of nature?

He said that here he hesitated. He had previously believed that the inward activity of nature was life and that love and wisdom, which are the essential components of human life, come from this source. It is produced by the heat and light coming from the fire of the sun and transmitted through atmospheres. But now as the result of what he had heard about people living after death he was in doubt, a doubt which alternately lifted up and depressed his mind. When it was lifted up, he acknowledged a centre which had previously been quite unknown to him; when it was depressed he saw a centre which he thought to be the only one. Life was from the centre previously unknown to him, and nature from the centre he thought to be the only one, each centre being surrounded by an expanse.

[11] We said we approved of that, so long as he was willing to view the centre and expanse of nature from the centre and expanse of life, and not the reverse. We taught him that above the heaven of the angels there is a Sun which is pure love; it appears fiery, like the sun in the world, and the heat radiated from it is the source of will and love among angels and human beings; the light radiating from it produces their understanding and wisdom. Everything from this source is called spiritual; but the radiation from the sun of the natural world is a container or receiver of life; this is what we call natural. The expanse proper to the centre of life is called the spiritual world, and the expanse proper to the centre of nature is called the natural world, which owes its subsistence to its own sun. Now because space and time cannot be predicated of love and wisdom, but there are states instead, it follows that the expanse surrounding the sun of the heaven of angels is not a spatial extension, though it is present in the extension to which the natural sun belongs, and with the living things there, depending upon their ability to receive them, and this is determined by their forms and states.

[12] But then he asked, 'What is the origin of fire in the sun of the world, the natural sun?'

We replied that it was from the sun of the heaven of angels, which is not fire, but the Divine Love most nearly radiating from God, who is in its midst. Since he found this surprising, we gave this explanation: 'Love in its essence is spiritual fire; that is why "fire" in the spiritual sense of the Word stands for love. That is why priests in church pray that heavenly fire may fill their hearts, meaning love. The fire on the altar and the fire of the lampstand in the Tabernacle of the Israelites was nothing but a representation of Divine Love. The heat of the blood, or the vital heat of human beings, and of animals in general, comes from no other source than the love which makes up their life. That is why people become warm, grow hot and burst into flame, when their love is raised to zeal, or is aroused to anger and rage. Therefore the fact that spiritual heat, being love, produces natural heat in human beings, to such an extent as to fire and inflame their faces and bodies, can serve as a proof that the fire of the natural sun arose from no other source than the fire of the spiritual sun, which is Divine love.

[13] Now because the expanse arises from the centre, and not the reverse, as we said before, and the centre of life, which is the sun of the heaven of angels, is the Divine Love most nearly radiating from God, who is in the midst of that sun; and because this is the origin of the expanse deriving from that centre, which is called the spiritual world; and because that sun brought into being the sun of the world, and also the expanse which is called the natural world, it is plain that the universe was created by God.'

After this we went away, and he accompanied us out of the courtyard of his school, speaking with us about heaven and hell, and about Divine guidance, showing new powers of sagacity.

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