435. As regards 'the man and his wife' here being used to mean the new Church which earlier on was meant by 'Adah and Zillah', this nobody can know or deduce from the sense of the letter, for previously 'the man (homo) and his wife' meant the Most Ancient Church and its descendants. The point is clear however from the internal sense, and also from the fact that a little further on, in verses 3-4 of the next chapter, reference is again made, though the wording is entirely different, to the man and his wife begetting Seth. At that point the first generation of the descendants of the Most Ancient Church is meant. Unless something different were meant at this point there would be no need to say the same thing again. A parallel to this exists in Chapter 1, where the subject is the creation of man, and also of the fruits of the earth, and of beasts; followed by Chapter 2, where similar events are described, the reason for the similarity being, as has been stated, that Chapter 1 deals with the creation of the spiritual man, Chapter 2 with the creation of the celestial man. When this kind of repetition of one and the same person or thing occurs, something different is meant on the first occasion from the second. But the exact meaning cannot possibly be known except from the internal sense. The actual train of thought in like manner establishes the meaning here. And there is the added consideration that 'man and wife' is a general expression meaning that Church, which is the subject here and from which the new Church was born.

5782. 'And Judah said' means a perception imparted to the good of the Church in the natural. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perception, dealt with often (it is an imparted perception because all perception comes from the internal, that is, it flows in from the Lord by way of the internal, 5779); and from the representation of 'Judah' as the good of the Church, dealt with in 5583, 5603, 5775. Regarding Judah's representation, it should be recognized that in the highest sense he represents the Lord as regards His Divine Love, and in the internal sense His celestial kingdom, see 3654, 3881, and so the celestial kind of love there. Here therefore the good of love present with the Church in the natural is meant because now it exists among those who represent things in the natural which are to be joined to the internal.