5477. 'And they did not know that Joseph was hearing' means that the natural light in which those truths dwell does not engender any belief that spiritual light renders all things visible. This is clear from the representation of 'the sons of Jacob who did not know' as the truths which the external Church possesses, and so are present in the natural, often dealt with already - from which comes the meaning that the natural light in which those truths dwell does not engender any belief; and from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial of the spiritual, which dwells in spiritual light. But this spiritual light renders truths in the natural visible, and this is meant by 'Joseph was hearing'; for 'hearing' means both obeying and discerning, 5017. Thus spiritual light renders truths in the natural visible; but natural light cannot do the same for truths in the spiritual.

[2] The situation with natural light and spiritual light is as follows. Natural light flows from the sun in the world, and spiritual light flows from the Sun in heaven, which is the Lord. All the truths of faith that a person has learned since early childhood come to be understood by him with the help of the kinds of objects, and the ideas formed from these, that originate in the light of the world. Thus every single thing is seen in a natural way; for as long as he lives in the world all the ideas constituting a person's thought are based on the kinds of things that exist in the world. If therefore these things are taken away from him his thought is totally destroyed. One who has not been regenerated has no knowledge at all of the existence of spiritual light, not even of the existence in heaven of a light that has nothing in common with the light of the world. Still less does that person know that spiritual light is what lights up ideas and objects that originate in the light of the world and is what enables a person to think, draw conclusions, and reflect on them. The reason such spiritual light enables him to do this is that that light is wisdom itself which goes forth from the Lord; and that wisdom manifests itself as the light which the angels in heaven see before them. That light renders visible every single thing beneath it, that is, every single thing present with a person which is a product of natural light. But the reverse does not happen unless the person has been regenerated, in which case the things that belong to heaven, that is, forms of goodness and truth, are lit up by spiritual light and become visible in the natural as if in a representative mirror.

[3] From this it is evident that the Lord, who is Light itself, sees every single thing present in a person's thought and will, and present indeed in the whole natural creation; nothing at all escapes His notice. From all this one may now recognize what is involved here - that natural light in which those truths dwell does not engender any belief that spiritual light renders all things visible, meant by the words 'they did not know that Joseph was hearing'. Much the same is implied by the statement above in verse 8, 'Joseph recognized his brothers and they did not recognize him'. For these words mean that the truths of the Church were seen by the celestial of the spiritual by the light it possessed, and that truth from the Divine was not seen in natural light that was not yet brightened with heavenly light; see 5427, 5428.

5428. 'And they did not recognize him' means that truth from the Divine was not seen in natural light that was not yet brightened with heavenly light. This becomes clear from what has gone immediately before this, for since 'Joseph recognized his brothers' means that general truths known to the Church were seen by the celestial of the spiritual by the light this possessed, it follows that 'they did not recognize him' means that the celestial of the spiritual, which is truth from the Divine, was not seen by the general truths known to the Church while these were in natural light not yet brightened with heavenly light. This meaning may indeed be seen from what has been stated immediately above; but as it belongs among arcana let some examples be used to shed light on the matter. Take as an example the glory of heaven. Consider those who, when they think about the glory of heaven, see this in natural light that has not been brightened with heavenly light because no intermediary is present, especially if no agreement exists. Such people's idea of the glory of heaven cannot be anything different from the kind of idea they possess about the glory of the world when they read, for instance, about the revelations made to prophets, in particular those made to John and described in the Book of Revelation, in which everything is most magnificent. One may tell these people that the glory of heaven surpasses all worldly magnificence, so completely that one cannot begin to compare it with that glory. One may also tell them that even this is not really the glory of heaven, but that the glory of heaven consists in that which is of God shining out of every individual thing to be seen there, and in a perception of Divine realities and in the wisdom gained from that perception. One may tell these people too that this alone is the glory to those who are there, for they consider worldly magnificence, in comparison with such wisdom, to be nothing at all, and they attribute all wisdom to the Lord and none whatsoever to themselves. But if people behold the glory of heaven in natural light devoid of an intermediary, and especially if no agreement exists, that glory goes completely unrecognized.

[2] Take angelic power as another example. Consider those who, when they think about angelic power, in particular that of the archangels who are mentioned in the Word, do so in natural light that has not been brightened with heavenly light because no intermediary is present, especially if because no agreement exists. Such people's idea of that power cannot be anything different from the idea they have of the power wielded by powerful rulers in the world. That is to say, they think that angels have thousands upon thousands of subordinates over whom they rule, and that high positions in heaven involve that kind of domination. One may tell these people that angelic power does indeed surpass all power wielded by powerful rulers in the world and is so great that just one of the subordinate angels can drive away millions of hellish spirits and send them down into their own hells, which is why in the Word angels are called 'powers' and 'dominions'. One may also tell those people that the least of the angels is the greatest; that is, the one who believes, wishes, and perceives that all power originates entirely within the Lord and never at all within himself is a very highly powerful ruler. And therefore those who are 'powers' in heaven utterly detest any power that derives from themselves. But neither is any of this recognized when beheld in natural light devoid of the intermediary, and more so if no agreement exists.

[3] Take yet another example. Consider a person who looks at freedom from a natural idea devoid of an intermediary linking it to a spiritual one, and especially if no agreement exists between the two. He cannot see freedom as anything else than thinking and willing from what is within himself and being able to carry out without restriction whatever he so thinks and wills. More than that, to the end that he can have whatever he thinks and wills the natural man wishes to become very rich; and to the end that he can carry out whatever he thinks and wills he wishes to become very powerful. Once he has attained this he imagines that he is in perfect freedom and consequently possesses real happiness. If however one tells people like this that true freedom, called heavenly freedom, is not at all like that, but that it involves no willing from what is within oneself, only from the Lord, and does not involve any thinking from what is within oneself, only from heaven, and that feelings of pain and sorrow ensue if one is allowed to think from what is within oneself and to will from what is in oneself, nothing of this is recognized.

These examples may serve to some extent to show what is implied by truth from the Divine not being seen in natural light that has not yet been brightened with heavenly light, meant by Joseph's brothers not recognizing him.