5512. 'And took us for men spying out the land' means that it saw the truths known to the Church as ones existing there for the sake of gain. This is clear from the representation of the sons of Jacob, to whom 'us' refers here, as the truths known to the Church that were present in the natural, dealt with in 5403, 5419, 5427, 5458; and from the meaning of 'spies' or 'men spying out the land' as people interested in the truths known to the Church solely for the sake of gain, dealt with in 5432.

1822. That 'He said to him' means perception is clear from what has been stated above at verses 2 and 7. Perception itself is nothing else than a certain form of conversing that takes place inwardly, but which makes itself known whenever the spoken word is grasped perceptively. Every form of inward dictate, even conscience, is nothing else; but perception is a higher or more interior degree of it.