57. I spoke with some of those people about the keys given to Peter, asking whether they believed the Lord's power over heaven and hell was transferred to him. Since this is a fundamental point in their religious system, they strongly insisted on it, saying that there was no doubt at all about it, since it is plainly stated. When I asked whether they knew that the details of the Word contain a spiritual sense, and that this is how the Word is understood in heaven, they started by saying that they did not. But later they said that they would enquire, and on doing so they were taught that the details of the Word contain a spiritual sense, which is as different from the literal sense as what is spiritual is from what is natural. Moreover, they were taught that none of the names used in the Word has that meaning in heaven, but there something spiritual is understood instead. Finally they were informed that instead of Peter there is meant in the Word the church's truth of faith coming from the good of charity. Rock, which is mentioned along with Peter, has a similar meaning, for we read:

You are Peter and upon this rock ¹ I will build my church. Matthew 16:18.

This does not mean that any power was given to Peter, but to truth arising from good; for all power in the heavens belongs to truth arising from good, or to good acting by means of truth, and because all good and truth come from the Lord, and nothing is from man, all power belongs to the Lord.

On hearing this they were indignant and wanted to know whether that was the spiritual sense of the words. So they were given the Word as it is in heaven, which contains the spiritual but not the natural sense, since it is for angels, and they are spiritual. On the existence of such a Word in heaven see HEAVEN AND HELL 259-261. When they read this they saw plainly that there was no mention of Peter in it, but in his place truth from good coming from the Lord. ¹ On seeing this they angrily rejected the Word, and would almost have torn it in pieces with their teeth, if it had not been instantly snatched away. Thus they were convinced, although against their will, that that power belongs to the Lord alone; far less does it belong to any human being, because it is Divine.

Poznámky pod čarou:

6397. 'Will judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel' means that it is one of the truths in general which the tribes of Israel represent. This is clear from the meaning of 'judging' as truth exercising its proper function, dealt with below; from the meaning of 'people' as those governed by truth, dealt with in 1259, 1260, 2928, 3295, 3581, 4619, at this point those guided by truth but not as yet by good, since they are Dan, that is, the people of Dan, 6396; and from the representation of 'the tribes of Israel' as all truths and forms of good in general, dealt with in 3858, 3926, 3939, 4060, 6335. Consequently 'will judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel' means that the truth which 'Dan' represents is one of the general truths that 'the tribes of Israel' represent. The reason why 'judging his people' means truth exercising its proper function is that all truths in general are represented by 'the tribes of Israel', as may become clear from the paragraphs referred to above; and since truths are what act as judges, 'judging his people' means truth exercising its proper function.

[2] In the Word one reads the description that the twenty-four elders will sit on thrones and judge nations and peoples, and that the twelve apostles will similarly sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. A person with no knowledge of the internal sense of the Word will think that precisely that is going to happen. But how those descriptions should be understood becomes clear when one knows from the internal sense what 'the twenty-four elders', 'the twelve apostles', and also 'thrones' mean, namely all truths in their entirety, in accordance with which judgement is effected. The same goes for one's understanding here of 'judging his people as one of the tribes of Israel'. The meaning is not that these or any other elders among them will act as judges, but that the actual truths meant by them, therefore the Lord alone since every truth comes forth from Him, will do so. The reference to the twenty-four elders who will sit on thrones and act as judges occurs in John as follows,

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders seated, clad in white garments, who had crowns of gold on their heads. Revelation 4:4; 11:16.

In the same book,

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was given to them. Revelation 20:4.

The reference to the twelve apostles occurs in Matthew,

Jesus said, You who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28.

And in Luke,

I bestow on you, just as My father bestowed on Me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 21:29-30.

Here neither the twenty-four elders nor the twelve apostles are what are really meant but all truths and forms of good in general, as may be recognized from the consideration that nobody, not even any angel, can judge anyone; for no one except the Lord alone can know what a person is or ever will be like interiorly. With regard to the twelve apostles, that they had a similar meaning to the twelve tribes, which was all truths and forms of good in their entirety, see 2129, 2553, 3488, 3858 (end). From all this it is now evident that 'Dan will judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel' means that the truth represented by 'Dan' is one of the general truths by means of which judgement is effected.