5141. 'That he had interpreted what was good' means what was going to take place. This is clear from the meaning of 'interpreting' as what it held within itself, or what lay within it, dealt with above in 5093, 5105, 5107, 5121, and thus also what was going to take place. The discernment that what was good was going to take place was a sensory discernment which, compared with other kinds of discernment, is an obscure one. To be exact, there is the power of discernment exercised by the senses or the exterior natural; the power of discernment exercised by the interior natural; and the power of discernment exercised by the rational. When a person is led by affection to think on a more interior level and to divorce his mind from what his senses and his body tell him, his discernment is of the rational kind. For in his case lower ideas, that is, those conceived by his external man, become dormant, and that person is virtually in his spirit. But when, for reasons that arise in the world, his thought exists on a more exterior level his power of discernment is that exercised by the interior natural. The rational is, it is true, exerting an influence, but not with any living affection. When however a person is engrossed in mere pleasures and the delights engendered by a love of the world, and also by self-love, his power of discernment is that exercised by the senses. His life in this case is focused on external interests or the body, and he has no room for anything internal apart from what will prevent him from breaking out into shameful and unseemly kinds of behaviour. But the more external his discernment is, the more obscure it is; for in relation to interior things exterior ones are general. Countless details that are interior manifest themselves in that which is exterior as one simple whole.

5121. 'And Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perception, dealt with in 1791, 1815, 1819, 1822, 1898, 1919, 2080, 2619, 2862, 3509, 3395, in this case as revelation resulting from perception, since the subject is a dream and its interpretation, and all revelation is either the result of talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks or else the result of perception, dealt with below; from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial within the natural, dealt with above in 5086, 5087, 5106; and from the meaning of 'the interpretation' as what it held within it, also dealt with above, in 5093, 5105, 5107. From this it is evident that 'Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it.

[2] With regard to revelations resulting either from perception or from talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks, it should be recognized that people who are governed by good and from this by truth, especially those who are governed by good flowing from love to the Lord, receive revelation as a result of perception. But those who are not governed by good or from this by truth can indeed receive revelations, but not those that are the result of perception, only those which come to them through a voice which they hear speaking within themselves and so through angels from the Lord. This kind of revelation is external, whereas the other kind is internal. Revelation resulting from perception is the kind that angels, especially celestial ones, receive. It was also the kind received by members of the Most Ancient Church, and by some members of the Ancient Church too; but scarcely anyone receives such at the present day. Very many people however, including those who have not been governed by good, have received revelations from conversations [with angels] which did not involve any perception, the same as with those receiving revelations through visions or through dreams.

[3] Most of the revelations received by the prophets in the Jewish Church were of this kind - they heard a voice, saw a vision, or dreamed a dream. But because they had no perception these were merely verbal or visual revelations which did not involve any perception about what was really meant by them. For genuine perception comes from the Lord through heaven; it fills the understanding with spiritual ideas and leads it, as may be perceived, to think along the lines of, and inwardly to recognize, the true nature of a thing. The source of that power of recognition is not known, but the understanding imagines that it begins within itself and springs from the interconnected ideas it has present within itself. But in fact that power is a dictate coming from the Lord by way of heaven into the interior parts of ones thought regarding the things that are above and beyond the natural and the senses, that is, the kinds of things that belong to the spiritual world or heaven. From all this one may see what revelation resulting from perception is. But the revelation resulting from perception which the Lord, who is represented here by 'Joseph', had - which revelation is the subject here in the internal sense - sprang from the Divine within Himself, and so originated in Himself.