5470. 'Whose anguish of soul we saw' means the state of the internal in regard to good, ¹ once it was alienated. This is clear from the meaning of 'anguish of soul' as the state which the soul passes through when it is alienated from the external. The nature of this state is as follows: The Lord comes to a person constantly, bringing good to him, and also truth within that good; but the person either accepts this or does not accept it. If he accepts it, all is well with him; but if he does not, all is ill. If, while not accepting it, he feels worried, described here as 'anguish of soul', the hope exists that he can be reformed; but if he has no such feeling, the hope disappears. For with every person two spirits from hell are present and two angels from heaven. These are present because a person is born in sins and cannot by any means live unless he is on one hand in communication with hell and on the other in communication with heaven. His entire life depends on having these on either hand. When a person is growing up he begins to be his own master, that is, it seems to him that his will and actions spring from his own power of judgement, and in matters of faith his thought and deductions are the result of his own power of understanding. If during this time he inclines to evils, the two spirits from hell draw closer to him and the two angels from heaven move a small distance away. But if he inclines to good the two angels from heaven draw nearer and the two spirits from hell are withdrawn.

[2] If therefore a person when he inclines to evils - as most people do in adolescence - feels at all disturbed when he reflects on an evil deed he has committed, this is a sign that he will nevertheless accept what flows into him from heaven through the angels. It is also a sign that subsequently he will allow himself to be reformed. But if he does not feel in any way disturbed when he reflects on an evil deed he has committed, this is a sign that he no longer wishes to accept what flows into him from heaven through the angels; and it is a sign too that subsequently he will not allow himself to be reformed. Here therefore, where the subject is the truths known to the external Church, which are represented by 'the ten sons of Jacob', reference is made to 'the anguish of soul' which Joseph experienced once he was alienated from his brothers, and then to the fact that Reuben had warned them against doing what they did. By this is meant the consideration that once that state was under way reformation was to follow; that is, the internal came to be joined to the external, that joining together being the subject in what follows. For with people who feel disturbed during this state, an internal recognition of evil is present; and when the Lord calls that recognition to mind, it becomes confession and finally penitence.

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74. But let us turn to experience now. As for angels being human forms, or people, this I have seen thousands of times. I have talked with them face to face, sometimes with just one, sometimes with several in a group, and as far as their form is concerned, I have seen in them nothing different from that of a human being. At times I have felt surprised that they were like this; and to prevent it being said that this was some illusion or hallucination, I have been allowed to see them while I was fully awake, or while I was in full possession of my physical senses and in a state of clear perception.

I have often told them that people in the Christian world are in such blind ignorance about angels and spirits that they think of them as minds without form, as mere thoughts, and can conceive of them only as something airy with something alive within it. Further, since they attribute to them nothing human except a capacity for thought, they believe angels cannot see because they have no eyes, cannot hear because they have no ears, and cannot talk because they have no mouths or tongues.

[2] Angels have replied that they know many people on earth have this kind of belief and that it is prevalent among the learned and - strangely!-among the clergy. They have told me that it is because some of the learned who were particularly eminent and who came up with this kind of concept of angels and spirits thought about them on the basis of the sensory faculties of the external person. If people think on this basis and not on the basis of a more inward light and the common idea native to everyone, they cannot help constructing images like this, because the sensory faculties of the external person grasp only matters that are within the bounds of nature and not things that are higher. So they do not grasp anything at all about the spiritual world. ¹ From these eminent people as leaders, false thoughts about angels spread to people who did not think independently but relied on others; and people who let their thinking rely primarily on others and then form their faith, and later look into these matters with their minds, have a hard time giving these ideas up. As a result, many of them cooperate in confirming these false notions.

[3] Angels have also told me that people of simple faith and heart are not caught up in this concept of angels, but have an image of them as people in heaven. This is because they have not let erudition snuff out the image implanted in them from heaven and because they do not grasp anything unless it has some form. This is why the angels we see sculpted and painted in churches are invariably represented as human. As for this "image implanted in them from heaven," angels tell me that it is something divine that flows into people who are intent on goodness of faith and life.

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