6075. 'Both we and our fathers' means that this was so since the time of the ancients. This is clear from the meaning of 'fathers' as those who belonged to the ancient Churches, dealt with in 6050. In the Word there are many places referring to the Jews and Israelites in which their fathers are spoken of in a praiseworthy manner. People who confine themselves to the sense of the letter do not take 'fathers in those places to mean anybody other than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and also the sons of Jacob. But in the internal sense 'fathers', in a good sense, is used to mean not them but those who belonged to the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood and those who belonged to the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood. Members of both were called 'fathers' because the Church came down from them and things of the Church were derived from them.

[2] 'Fathers' is used in Moses to mean those belonging to the Ancient Churches,

Your fathers Jehovah delighted to love, and He chose their seed after them. Deuteronomy 10:15.

And in the same author,

Remember the days of old, understand the Years of generation after generation. When the Most High gave to the nations an inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel. But when Jeshurun became fat he forsook God. They sacrifice to demons, to gods [whom they do not know, to new ones] that have come from near by and that your fathers did not fear. ¹ Deuteronomy 32:7-8, 15, 17.

These words appear in the prophetical Song of Moses, in which verses 7-15 refer to the Ancient Church and Verses 15-44 to the descendants of Jacob. The state of the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood is meant by 'the days of old', and the state of the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood by 'the years of generation after generation'. Their state of good is meant by 'an inheritance which the Most High gave to the nations', and their state of truth by 'the Most High separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel', which 'number', being 'twelve', means all the truths of faith in their entirety, see 577, 2089, 2129 (end), 2130 (end), 3272, 3858, 3913. From this it is evident that 'fathers' means those who belonged to the ancient Churches. A similar meaning exists in the following places:

In Isaiah,

Our holy house, and our splendour, where our fathers praised You, has been made into a blaze of fire. Isaiah 64:11.

In Jeremiah,

Did not your father eat and drink, yet execute judgement and righteousness? Then all went well for him. Jeremiah 22:15.

In the same prophet,

They have sinned against Jehovah, the habitation of righteousness and the hope of their fathers. Jeremiah 50:7.

In David,

O God, we have heard with our ears, our fathers have told us the work You worked in their days, in the days of old. Psalms 44:1.

'Fathers' is used in the same way in Daniel 11:14, 37-38. The fact that those who belonged to the ancient Churches are meant in these places by 'fathers' is not apparent in the sense of the letter; it is seen only from the internal sense in which the Church, its forms of good, and its truths are the subject. Furthermore the Church itself - being the heavenly marriage, that is, the marriage of goodness and truth - is called 'father' in the Word in respect to goodness and 'mother' in respect to truth, 3707, 5581.

Poznámky pod čarou:

2129. There are also other types of tumults, or rather of conflicts, which also convey the idea of a Last Judgement and by which communities harmfully joined together as regards their interiors are dissolved. Concerning them let the following be mentioned: Such spirits are driven into a condition in which they do not think in their normal way as a community, that is, one with another, but each one independently. As a result of their thinking, each at variance with the others, and of each muttering something different from the rest, an uproar is produced which sounds like that of many waters; and conflict with one another takes place such as defies description which arises out of the mishmash of opinions concerning firmly established truths, which are at the time the substance of their thoughts and speech. That mishmash is such as may be called spiritual chaos.

[2] The sound of these conflicting and confused uproarings was threefold. The first flowed in around the head, and I was told it was that of thoughts. The second flowed in towards the left temple. I was told that this was a conflict of reasonings about certain truths in which they were unwilling to pin their faith. The third flowed in from above over on the right. It was rasping though less confused, a rasping sound directed first this way, then that. I was told that this was the product of truths clashing which were being turned this way and that by means of reasonings. While these conflicts were going on there were other spirits who spoke to me, telling me in speech that rose clearly above all that noise the meaning of every single thing.

[3] The matters which they reasoned about were chiefly these - whether the statement that the twelve apostles were going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel was to be understood literally, and also whether other people who have endured persecution and affliction were to be allowed into heaven. Each one reasoned in accordance with what had taken his fancy during his lifetime. Some of them however who had been brought back into associations with one another and into order were then informed that those descriptions were to be understood in a completely different way, that is to say, that 'apostles' is not used to mean apostles, nor 'thrones' to mean thrones, nor 'tribes' tribes, nor indeed is 'twelve' used to mean twelve. Instead apostles, thrones, tribes, and also twelve, meant the first and foremost matters of faith, 2089. They also said that such matters of faith are the starting-point and the criteria from which everyone is judged. And over and above all this they were shown that the apostles have no power to judge anyone at all, and that all judgement is the Lord's alone.

[4] As regards the second point which they reasoned about, this should not be taken to mean that only those who have endured persecution and affliction will enter heaven, but that the rich no less than the poor will do so, those who have held important positions no less than those whose position has been humble. Furthermore the Lord takes pity on all, especially on people who have endured spiritual afflictions and temptations, which are persecutions by the evil, thus on those who acknowledge that of themselves they are wretched and who believe that it is through the Lord's mercy alone they are saved.