4311. That in the internal historical sense by for I have seen God faces to faces, and my soul is delivered, is signified that He was present representatively, is evident from the signification of “seeing God faces to faces,” when these words are predicated of the state in which the posterity of Jacob were, as being that the Lord was present representatively; for to see God faces to faces in the external form and with the bodily sight, is not to see Him present (n. 4299). That He was not present as with those who are regenerate, and thereby are in spiritual love and faith, is manifest from what has been said of that nation (n. 4281, 4288, 4290, 4293)—that they were in external worship, and not at the same time in internal, or what is the same, in bodily and worldly, and not in spiritual and heavenly love. With such the Lord could never be present except representatively.

[2] What it is to be present representatively, must be briefly told. A man who is in bodily and worldly love and not at the same time in spiritual and heavenly love, has none but evil spirits with him, even when he is in a holy external; for good spirits cannot possibly be present with such a person, because they at once perceive in what kind of love a man is. There is a sphere which is exhaled from his interiors, which spirits perceive as manifestly as a man perceives by his sense of smell offensive and foul vapors floating around him in the air. That nation which is here treated of, was in such a state as to good and truth, or as to love and faith. In order, however, that they might serve as the representative of a church, it was miraculously provided by the Lord that when they were in a holy external, and were at the same time surrounded by evil spirits, the holy in which they were might yet be uplifted into heaven; and this by good spirits and angels not within but without them, for within them there was nothing but emptiness or uncleanness. Communication was therefore given not with the man himself, but with the holy itself in which they were when they fulfilled the statutes and precepts given them, which were all representative of spiritual and heavenly things of the Lord’s kingdom. This is signified by the Lord’s being present with that nation representatively. But the Lord is present in a very different way with those within the church who are in spiritual love and thence in faith. With these there are good spirits and angels not only in their external worship, but also at the same time in their internal; and therefore with them there exists a communication of heaven with themselves; for the Lord flows into them through heaven through their internals into their externals. To these the holy of worship is profitable in the other life, but not to the former.

[3] It is similar with priests and elders who preach holy things, and yet are in evil life and evil belief. With these there are not good, but evil spirits, even when they are in worship that appears holy in the external form. For it is the love of self and of the world, or a love for securing honors and acquiring gain and thereby fame, that fires them and presents an appearance of affection for what is holy, sometimes to such a degree that no simulation is perceived, nor is at the time believed by them to exist; when yet they are in the midst of evil spirits, who are then in a similar state, and who breathe upon them and into them. That evil spirits can be in such a state, and are so when they are in their externals, and are inflated with the love of self and of the world, has been given me to know by manifold experience, which of the Lord’s Divine mercy will be described hereafter at the end of the chapters. Such preachers have no communication with heaven in themselves; and yet those have who hear and receive the words from their mouth, if they are in a pious and holy internal; for it matters not from whom the voice of good and truth flows forth, provided their life is not manifestly wicked; for this life causes a scandal.

[4] That the nation descended from Jacob was of such a character (namely, that they were surrounded with evil spirits, and yet the Lord was present with them representatively), may be seen from many passages in the Word; for they were very far from worshiping Jehovah with the heart, and as soon as miracles were lacking, they immediately turned to other gods and became idolaters. This was a manifest proof that at heart they worshiped other gods and confessed Jehovah with the mouth only, and this merely for the reason that they might be the greatest and have preeminence over all the nations round about. That this people at heart worshiped an Egyptian idol, and only confessed Jehovah with the mouth on account of His miracles (with Aaron himself among them), is plainly evident from the golden calf which Aaron made for them, and this but a month after they had seen such great miracles on Mount Sinai, besides those which they had seen in Egypt (see Exodus 32). That Aaron also was of the same character is plainly stated at verses 2 to 5, (Exodus 32:2-5) and especially in (Exodus 32:35) verse 35. The same appears also from many other passages in Moses, in the book of the Judges, in the books of Samuel, and in the books of the Kings.

[5] That they were only in external worship and not in any internal worship, is evident also from the fact that they were forbidden to come near to Mount Sinai when the Law was promulgated, and were told that if they touched the mountain, they should surely die (Exodus 19:11-13; 20:16, 19). The reason was that their internal was unclean. It is also said in Moses:

That Jehovah dwelt with them in the midst of their uncleannesses (Leviticus 16:16).

The quality of that nation is evident also from the song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32:15-43), and from many passages in the Prophets. From all this it may be known that with that nation there was not any church, but only a representative of a church, and that the Lord was present with them only representatively.

[6] Compare also what has previously been stated in regard to them:

That with the posterity of Jacob there was a representative of a church, but not a church (n. 4281, 4288);

That the representative of a church was not instituted with them until after they had been altogether vastated as to a holy internal, and that they would otherwise have profaned holy things (n. 3398, 4289);

That when they remained in their statutes they could represent, but not when they turned aside from them (n. 3881 at the end);

That on this account they were kept strictly in rituals, and that they were driven thereto by external means (n. 3147, 4281);

That their worship was made external without internal in order that they might serve as a representative of a church (n. 4281);

That for this reason also the interior things of the church were not disclosed to them (n. 301-303vvv2, 2520, 3398, 3479, 3769);

That they were of such a nature that they could more than others be in a holy external without an internal (n. 4293);

That for this reason they have been preserved to this day (n. 3479);

And that their holy external does not affect them at all as to their souls (n. 3479).

1259. Further, as regards nations signifying the goods and evils in worship, the case is this. In the most ancient times, as has been stated before, men lived distinguished into nations, families, and households, in order that the church on earth might represent the Lord’s kingdom, wherein all are distinguished into societies, and these societies into greater ones, and these again into still greater societies, and this according to the differences of love and of faith, in general and in particular, concerning which see n. 684, 685. Thus these in like manner are distinguished as it were into households, families, and nations. And hence it is that in the Word “houses, families, and nations” signify the goods of love and of the derivative faith; and an accurate distinction is there made between “nations” and “people.” A “nation” signifies good or evil, and a “people” truth or falsity, and this so constantly as never to vary, as may be seen from the following passages.

[2] In Isaiah:

In that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto it shall the nations seek, and His rest shall be a glory. In that day the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to acquire the remnant of His people, which shall be left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah (Isaiah 11:10-12).

Here “peoples” denote the truths, and “nations” the goods, of the church; and there is a manifest distinction made between them. The subject treated of is the Lord’s kingdom and the church, and in a universal sense every regenerate man. The signification of the names is as stated above; and by “Israel” is signified the spiritual things of the church, and by “Judah” its celestial things. Again:

The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light; Thou hast multiplied the nation, Thou hast magnified gladness for it (Isaiah 9:2-3).

The “people” here denote truths, and therefore are said to “walk in darkness,” and to “see light;” the “nation” denotes goods.

[3] And again:

What answer shall be made to the messengers of the nation? That Jehovah hath founded Zion, and in her shall the wretched ones of His people confide (Isaiah 14:32).

Here likewise the “nation” denotes good, and “people” truth. And again:

Jehovah Zebaoth will swallow up in this mountain the faces of the covering, of the covering over all peoples, and the veil that is spread over all nations (Isaiah 25:7).

Here a new church is spoken of, or the church of the nations; “peoples” denote its truths, and “nations” its goods. Again:

Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation that keepeth faithfulnesses may enter in (Isaiah 26:2),

where “nation” manifestly denotes goods. Again:

All the nations shall be gathered together, and the peoples shall be assembled (Isaiah 43:9).

This also is said of the church of the nations; “nations” denoting its goods, and “peoples” its truths. And because they are distinct from each other, both are treated of; otherwise there would be a vain repetition. Again:

Thus saith the Lord Jehovih, Behold I will lift up Mine hand to the nations, and will exalt My ensign to the peoples; and they shall bring thy sons in their bosom, and shall carry thy daughters upon their shoulder (Isaiah 49:22).

This is said of the Lord’s kingdom; and the “nations” in like manner denote goods, and the “peoples” truths.

[4] Again:

Thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left, and thy seed shall inherit the nations, and they shall inhabit the desolate cities (Isaiah 54:3);

treating of the Lord’s kingdom, and of the church which is called the church of the nations. That the “nations” denote the goods of charity, or, what is the same, those in whom there are goods of charity, is evident from its being said that the “seed”—or faith—“shall inherit” them; “cities” denote truths. Again:

Behold I have given Him for a witness to the peoples, a prince and lawgiver to the peoples. Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knewest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee (Isaiah 55:4-5).

This is said of the Lord’s kingdom; “peoples” denote truths; “nations” goods. Those in the church who are endowed with the good of charity are “nations,” and those who are endowed with the truths of faith are “peoples;” for goods and truths are predicated according to the subjects in whom they are. Again:

Nations shall walk to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Then thou shalt see and flow together, and thine heart shall be amazed and be enlarged; because the multitude of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the army of the nations shall come unto thee (Isaiah 60:3, 5);

treating of the Lord’s kingdom, and of the church of the nations. “Nations” here denote goods; “kings,” who belong to peoples, truths.

[5] In Zephaniah:

The remains of My people shall spoil them, and the residue of My nation shall inherit them (Zephaniah 2:9).

In Zechariah:

Many peoples and numerous nations shall come to seek Jehovah of Armies in Jerusalem (Zechariah 8:22).

“Jerusalem” denotes the Lord’s kingdom, and the church; “peoples” those who are in the truths of faith; “nations” those who are in the good of charity; and therefore they are mentioned distinctively.

In David:

Thou wilt deliver Me from the contentions of the people; Thou wilt set Me for the head of the nations; a people whom I have not known shall serve Me (Psalms 18:43).

Here likewise the “people” denote those who are in truths; and the “nations” those who are in good; and they are both mentioned because they constitute the man of the church. Again:

The peoples shall confess Thee, O God, all the peoples shall confess Thee, the nations shall be glad and shall exult, because Thou shalt judge the peoples in uprightness, and shalt lead the nations into the land (Psalms 67:4-5).

Here “peoples” manifestly denote those who are in the truths of faith; and “nations” those who are in the good of charity.

[6] In Moses:

Remember the days of eternity, understand the years of generation and generation; ask thy father, and he will show thee; thine elders, and they will tell thee. When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, and separated the sons of man, He set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:7-8).

This is said of the Most Ancient Church, and of the Ancient Churches, which are “the days of eternity, and the years of generation and generation;” and in which they who were in the good of charity were called “nations,” to whom an inheritance was given; and they who were in the derivative truths of faith were called “sons of man,” and afterwards “peoples.” It was because the goods of the church are signified by “nations,” and its truths by “peoples,” that it was said concerning Esau and Jacob, while they were yet in the womb,

Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels (Genesis 25:23).

From these passages it may now be seen what the church of the nations is, in its genuine sense. The Most Ancient Church was a true church of the nations, and so afterwards was the Ancient Church.

[7] Because those who are in charity are called “nations,” and those who are in faith “peoples,” the priesthood of the Lord is predicated of nations-because of things celestial, which are goods-and His royalty of peoples-because of spiritual things, which are truths. This was also represented in the Jewish Church, where before they had kings they were a nation, but after they received kings they became a people.