506. The fourth experience. ¹

I saw in the spiritual world two flocks, one of goats, the other of sheep. I wondered who they were, since I knew that when animals are seen in the spiritual world, they are not animals, but correspondences of the affections and from these the thoughts of those who are there. So I went nearer, and as I approached, the likenesses of animals disappeared, and I saw human beings in their place. It became clear that those who made up the flock of goats were those who had convinced themselves of the doctrine of justification by faith alone, and those who made up the flock of sheep were those who believed that charity and faith are one, just as good and truth are one.

[2] Then I spoke with those who had appeared like goats and said: 'Why have you met together?' Most were clergy who had prided themselves on their reputation for learning, because they knew the secrets of justification by faith alone.

They said that they had met together to hold a council, because they had heard that Paul's statement that man is justified by faith without the deeds prescribed by the law (Romans 3:28) had not been properly understood. For by faith there Paul did not mean the faith of the present-day church, in three Divine persons from eternity, but faith in the Lord God, the Saviour Jesus Christ. By the deeds prescribed by the law he did not mean the deeds prescribed by the law of the Ten Commandments, but those prescribed for the Jews by the law of Moses. Thus from those few words people had come to two monstrously false conclusions by incorrect interpretation: that faith meant the faith of the present-day church, and the deeds meant those prescribed by the Ten Commandments. 'Paul did not mean these,' they said, 'but those prescribed by the law of Moses which were intended for the Jews; and this is clearly established from his saying to Peter, whom he criticised for following Jewish practices, although he knew that no one is justified by the deeds prescribed by the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:14-16).' The faith of Jesus Christ is faith in Him and from Him, see above 338. Because by the deeds prescribed by the law Paul understood the deeds prescribed by the law of Moses, he made a distinction between the law of faith and the law of deeds, and between Jews and gentiles, or between circumcision and lack of circumcision. Circumcision means the Jews, as everywhere else. And he ends with these words:

Are we then abolishing the law by faith? By no means, we are reinforcing the law, Romans 3:27-31.

(He says all this in a single passage.) He also says in the preceding chapter:

It is not those who hear the law who will be justified by God, but those who keep it, Romans 2:13.

He says elsewhere that God will repay each according to his deeds (Romans 2:6), and:

We must all be put on show before the tribunal of Christ, so that each may be rewarded for his bodily acts, whether good or ill. 2 Corinthians 5:10.

There are many more passages showing that Paul rejected faith without good deeds, just as much as James did (James 2:17-26).

[3] Further evidence that Paul meant the deeds prescribed by the law of Moses for the Jews can be drawn from the fact that all the statutes for the Jews are called in the writings of Moses the law, and so these are the deeds prescribed by the law; e.g.:

This is the law of the grain offering, Leviticus 6:14, 18ff.

This is the law of the burnt-offering, the grain-offering, the sin-sacrifice, the guilt-sacrifice and the consecration, Leviticus 7:37, This is the law of beast and bird, Leviticus 11:46ff.

This is the law for one who bears a child, a son or a daughter, Leviticus 12:7.

This is the law for a leprous disease, Leviticus 13:59; 14:2, 32, 54, 57 This is the law of the person with a discharge, Leviticus 15:32.

This is the law in cases of jealousy, Numbers 5:29-30.

This is the law for the Nazirite, Numbers 6:13, 21.

This is the law of cleansing, Numbers 19:14.

This is the law concerning the red cow, Numbers 19:2.

The law for the king, Deuteronomy 17:15-19.

In fact, the whole book of Moses is called 'the Book of the Law' (Deuteronomy 31:9, 11-12, 26; also Luke 2:22; 24:44; John 1:45; 7:22-23; 8:5). They went on to say that they had seen in the writings of Paul that the Law of the Ten Commandments was to be observed in living and to be fulfilled by charity (Romans 13:8-11). He also says that there are three things, faith, hope and charity, and that the greatest of these is charity (1 Corinthians 13:13). So it is clear he did not put faith first. They said that these subjects were what they had been summoned to debate.

[4] However, not to disturb them, I went away; and then again they looked at a distance like goats, sometimes lying down and sometimes standing. But they turned their backs on the flock of sheep. When they were debating, they seemed to be lying down, but standing up when they reached a conclusion. But I kept my gaze fixed on their horns, and was surprised to notice that at one time the horns on their foreheads appeared to point forwards and upwards, at another time curving away towards their backs and eventually pointing completely the other way. Then they suddenly turned to face the flock of sheep, but they still looked like goats. So I went up to them again and asked: 'What are you doing now?' They replied that they had reached the conclusion that faith alone produces the good deeds of charity, as a tree produces fruit.

Then a clap of thunder was heard, and a flash of lightning was seen coming from above. Following this an angel appeared, standing between the two flocks, who shouted to the flock of sheep: 'Do not listen to them. They have not abandoned their former faith, which is that faith alone brings justification and salvation, and the practice of charity plays no part. Neither is faith a tree; it is man who is the tree. Repent and look to the Lord, and you will have faith; before doing that, the faith you have is not a faith with any life in it.'

Then the goats whose horns were curved backwards wanted to join the sheep. But the angel who stood between them divided the sheep into two flocks. He told those on the left: 'Go and join the goats; but I warn you, the wolf will come and seize them, and you with them.'

[5] After the two flocks of sheep had been separated, and those on the left had heard the angel's threatening words, they looked at one another and said: 'Let us talk with our former companions.' Then the left-hand flock spoke to the right-hand one and said: 'Why have you abandoned our shepherds ² ? Are not faith and charity one, as a tree and its fruit are one? The tree extends through its branches into the fruit; if you break a piece off a branch which forms the connection between the tree and its fruit, the fruit will be lost, won't it, and together with the fruit all the seed which might grow into a new tree? Ask our priests if that isn't so.'

So they asked the priests, and they looked around at the rest, who were winking at them to get them to say that they had made a good point. After this they replied: 'You have made a good point, but as regards the extension of faith into good deeds, like that of a tree into its fruit, we know many secrets, but this is not the occasion to divulge them. The chain or thread which links faith and charity has many knots on it, and only we, the priests, are able to undo them.'

[6] Then one of the priests, who belonged to the right-hand flock of sheep, got up and said: 'Their answer to you was Yes, but to their own party No, for they do not think as they speak.' 'How then do they think?' the others asked; 'Don't they think as they teach?'

'No,' he replied, 'they think that every good of charity, what is called a good deed, which a person does for the sake of salvation and everlasting life, is not in the least good, because by doing the deed himself the person wants to save himself, claiming for himself the righteousness and merit of the one Saviour. They think that this is true of every good deed in which a person is aware of his volition. They hold therefore that there is no link at all between faith and charity, not even that faith is retained and preserved by good deeds.'

[7] But those who belonged to the left-hand flock said: 'You are telling lies to accuse them. Don't they preach charity and its deeds, what they call the deeds of faith, openly in our hearing?'

'You do not understand their sermons,' he replied; only a clergyman who is present can grasp and understand them. What they have in mind is merely moral charity, and its social and political good deeds.

They call these the good deeds of faith, but they are certainly not. For an atheist can do them just as well and in the same guise. They say therefore with one voice that no one is saved by any deeds, but by faith alone. Let us take a comparison to illustrate this. They say that an apple-tree produces apples, but that if a person does good for the sake of salvation, just as the tree by a continuous extension of itself produces apples, then the apples are rotten inside and full of maggots. They say too that a vine produces grapes, but if a person were to do spiritual good deeds as a vine makes grapes, he would make bitter grapes.'

[8] Then they asked: 'What for them are the good deeds of charity, those that are the fruits of faith?'

He replied that perhaps they lurk out of sight somewhere near faith, but are not attached to it. 'They are,' he said, 'like a person's shadow, which follows behind him when he is looking towards the sun, and which he cannot see unless he turns around. Or rather I might say that they are like horses' tails, which in many places are docked nowadays, because people say: "What use are they? They serve no purpose, and if they remain attached to the horse, they easily get dirty."'

On hearing this someone in the left-hand flock of sheep became indignant and said: 'There certainly must be some link, else how could they be called the deeds of faith? Possibly the good deeds of charity are introduced by God into what a person does of his own will by some influence; let us say, by some affection, some afflatus, inspiration, urging and excitation of the will, some silent perception in thought, leading to exhortation, contrition and so to conscience, and thus leading to compulsion, obedience to the Ten Commandments and the Word, either like a child or like a wise man, or by some other means resembling these. How else could they call them the fruits of faith?'

To this the priest replied that they could not. 'And,' he said, 'if they do say that something like this happens, they still stuff their sermons full of words which prove that it is not from faith. There are still others who teach that such things occur but only as signs of faith, not as bonds linking it with charity. There are some, however, who have devised a theory of linking by means of the Word.'

Then they said, 'Isn't this how a link is made?' But he answered, 'That is not what they think, but they imagine it happens just by listening to the Word. For they claim that man's whole rational and voluntary faculty is in matters to do with faith impure and merit-seeking, since in spiritual matters a person cannot understand or will anything, work or co-operate, any more than a stick.'

[9] However one, on hearing that man was believed to be like this in all matters to do with faith and salvation, said: 'I heard someone saying: "I have planted a vineyard. Now I shall drink wine until I am drunk." But another man asked: "Surely you will drink wine out of your goblet by the use of your right hand?" "No," he said, "I shall drink out of an invisible goblet by means of an invisible hand." "Then," said the other man, "you certainly won't get drunk."'

A little later the same man said: 'Please listen to me. I tell you, drink the wine which comes from understanding the Word. Don't you know that the Lord is the Word? Is not the Word from the Lord? Is He not thus in it? If therefore you do good from the Word, are you not doing it from the Lord, in accordance with His words and His will? If you then look to the Lord, He will also guide and teach you, and you will do it of yourselves from the Lord. Can anyone who does something at a king's behest, in accordance with his words and his instructions, say: "I am doing this in accordance with my own words or instructions, and of my own will."'

[10] After this he turned to the clergy and said: 'You ministers of God, do not lead the flock astray.' On hearing this the majority of the left-hand flock went away and joined the right-hand flock.

Then some of the clergy began saying: 'We have heard things we never heard before. But we are shepherds, and we shall not abandon the sheep.' So they went away with them, saying: 'This man has uttered a true saying. How can anyone say "I do this of myself" when he does it in accordance with the Word, so at the Lord's behest, in accordance with His words and His will? Can anyone who does something at a king's behest, in accordance with his words and his will, say: "I am doing this of myself"? We now see it was by Divine providence that the link between faith and good deeds, which is recognised by the members of the church, was not discovered. It could not be, because it could not exist; for there was no faith in the Lord, who is the Word, and so there was not either any faith coming from the Word.'

But the rest of the priests, who belonged to the flock of goats, went off waving their hats and shouting: 'Faith alone, faith alone, long live faith alone.'

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417. To this I will append the following account:

I saw in the spiritual world two flocks, one a flock of goats, and the other a flock of sheep. I wondered who they were, since I knew that animals seen in the spiritual world are not really animals, but are correspondent forms of the affections and consequent thoughts of the local inhabitants. Therefore I drew nearer, and as I approached, the likenesses of animals disappeared, and instead of them I saw people. It also became clear that those who formed the flock of goats were people who had confirmed themselves in the doctrine of justification by faith alone, and that those who formed the flock of sheep were people who believed that charity and faith are inseparable, as goodness and truth are inseparable.

[2] I then spoke with those who had looked like goats, and I said, "Why are you gathered together like this?"

They were mostly clergy, who vaunted themselves on account of their reputation for learning, because they knew the arcana of justification by faith alone. They said they had assembled to convene a council, because they had heard that the saying of Paul in Romans 3:28, that "a person is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law," was not rightly understood, since by deeds of the law Paul meant the deeds prescribed by Mosaic law, which existed for Jews.

"We see this clearly," they said, "also from Paul's words to Peter, whom he rebuked for Judaizing, even though Peter knew that no one is justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:14-16). Moreover, Paul distinguishes between the law of faith and the law of works, ¹ and between Jews and gentiles, ² or between circumcision and uncircumcision; ³ and by circumcision he means Judaism, as he does everywhere else. He also then concludes with these words: 'Do we then abolish the law by faith? Not at all. Rather we establish the law.' He says all of this in one series of verses, in Romans 3:27-31.

"In addition, he says as well in the preceding chapter, 'not the hearers of the law will be justified in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified' (Romans 2:13). Furthermore, that God will render to each one according to his deeds (Romans 2:6). And still further, 'We must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may give an account of the things done in the body..., whether good or evil' (2 Corinthians 5:10). Not to mention many other statements in Paul's writing, which make it apparent that Paul rejected faith apart from good works, just as much as James (James 2:17-26).

[3] "That Paul meant the deeds prescribed by Mosaic law, which existed for Jews - this we have further confirmed from the fact that all the statutes for the Jews in the books of Moses are called the Law, being thus works prescribed by the Law, which we see to be so from the following statements:

This is the law of the grain offering. (Leviticus 6:14ff.)

This is the law of the trespass offering... (Leviticus 7:1, 7)

This is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings... (Leviticus 7:11ff.)

This is the law of the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering and trespass offering, the consecrations, and the sacrifice of the peace offerings... (Leviticus 7:37)

This is the law regarding animals and birds... (Leviticus 11:46f.)

This is the law regarding her who gives birth, to a son or a daughter. (Leviticus 12:7)

This is the law regarding a leprous plague... (Leviticus 13:59, cf. 14:2, 14:32, 14:54, 14:57)

This is the law regarding one suffering a discharge of fluid... (Leviticus 15:32)

This is the law regarding jealousness... (Numbers 5:29-30)

This is the law for the Nazirite... (Numbers 6:13, 21)

This is the law (regarding cleanness). (Numbers 19:14)

This is... the law (regarding the red heifer). (Numbers 19:2)

(The law for a king.) (Deuteronomy 17:15-19)

"In fact," the speakers said, "the whole five books of Moses are called the Book of the Law, in Deuteronomy 31:9, 11-12, 26, and elsewhere."

To this they added also that they saw in Paul that the law in the Ten Commandments ought to be lived, and that it is fulfilled by charity, which is love for the neighbor (Romans 13:8-10), thus not by faith alone.

They said that this was why they had come together.

[4] In order not to disturb them, however, I withdrew, and at a distance then they looked again like goats, sometimes like ones lying down, and sometimes like ones standing, but turned away from the flock of sheep. They looked like goats lying down when they were deliberating, and like ones standing when they drew conclusions.

But I kept my eyes on their horns, and I was surprised to see that the horns on their foreheads appeared sometimes as though extending forward and upward, and sometimes curving back to the rear, and finally to be completely turned backward. At that they suddenly all turned then to face the flock of sheep, though they looked like goats.

I went over to them again, therefore, and asked what was happening now. They said they had concluded that faith alone produces the goods of charity called good works, as a tree produces fruit.

But then we heard a clap of thunder and saw a flash of lightning from above; and presently an angel appeared, standing between the two flocks, who cried out to the flock of sheep, "Do not listen to them! They have not abandoned their earlier faith, which teaches that God the Father took pity for the sake of the Son. That faith is not faith in the Lord. Nor is faith a tree. Rather a person is a tree. Only repent and turn to the Lord, and you will have faith. Before then faith is not faith having any life in it."

The goats with their horns turned backward then tried to approach the sheep, but the angel standing between them divided the sheep into two groups and said to those on the left, "Attach yourselves to the goats. But I tell you that a wolf is going to come that will carry them off, and you with them."

[5] However, after the two groups of sheep had been separated, and those on the left heard the angel's warning, they looked at each other and said, "Let's confer with our former comrades."

So then the group on the left addressed the one on the right, saying, "Why did you leave your pastors? Are not faith and charity inseparable, as a tree and its fruit are inseparable? For a tree continues on through the branch into the fruit. Take away anything from the branch that flows by an unbroken connection into the fruit, and will not the fruit perish? Ask our priests if that is not the case."

So then they asked, and the priests looked around at the rest, who winked to tell them to speak well. And after that they replied that such was the case. "Faith is preserved by its fruits," they said. But they would not say that faith is contained in the fruits.

[6] At that one of the priests among the sheep on the right rose and said, "They replied to you that such is the case, but still they tell their own flock that it is not the case, as they think otherwise."

The group on the right asked, therefore, how those priests think then. "Do they not teach as they think?"

"No," the priest replied. "They think that every good of charity that is called a good work, that a person does for his salvation or for the sake of eternal life, is not good but evil, because by the work the person is trying of himself to save himself, claiming for himself the righteousness and merit of Him who is the only Savior. And this is the case, they think, with every good work in which a person is conscious of his own will. Consequently among themselves they call good works done by a person of himself not blessings but curses, saying that they merit hell rather than heaven."

[7] However, those of the group on the left said, "You are telling lies about them. Do they not clearly in our presence preach charity and its works, which they call works of faith?"

But the priest replied, "You do not understand their preaching. Only a clergyman who is present pays attention and understands. They think only of moral charity and its civic and political goods, which they call goods of faith, but which are absolutely not. For an atheist can do the same things in the same way and give them the same appearance. Therefore they unanimously say that no one is saved by any works, but by faith alone.

"But let us illustrate this with analogies. They say that an apple tree produces apples; however, if a person does good deeds for his salvation, as the tree does apples by an unbroken connection, then the apples are rotten inside and full of worms. They say, too, that a grapevine produces grapes; but if a person were to produce spiritual goods as a grapevine does grapes, he would produce wild grapes."

[8] At that those of the group on the left asked in response, "What then is the nature of their goods of charity or good works, which are the fruits of faith?"

The priest replied that they are unseen, being within a person from the Holy Spirit, of which the person is totally unaware.

Responding, they said, "If a person is totally unaware of them, there must at least be some connection. Otherwise how can they be called works of faith? Perhaps those unfelt goods are then insinuated into the person's volitional works by some mediating influx, as by some affecting, influencing, inspiring, prodding or spurring of the will, by a silent perception in the thought and a resulting admonition, contrition, and thus conscience, and so by an impulse, an obedience to the Ten Commandments and the Word, either as a little child or as a wise adult, or by some other means like these."

But the priest replied, "No, they are not. Even if their proponents say that it comes about by such means because good works come about by faith, still they sew these up in their sermons with words whose result is to deny that they originate from faith. Some of them still teach such means, but as signs of faith, and not as its bonds with charity."

Some of those on the left nevertheless conceived of a connection by means of the Word, and they said, "Is there not thus a connection, that a person acts voluntarily in accord with the Word?"

But the priest replied, "That's not what they think. Rather they think it is formed simply by hearing the Word, thus not by understanding the Word, lest something enter perceptibly through the intellect into a person's thought and will. For they assert that everything in a person's volitional makeup is merit-seeking, and that in spiritual matters a person cannot undertake, will, think, understand, believe, do or cooperate in anything any more than a log.

"Still, however, the case is different with the influx of the Holy Spirit through faith into the discourses of preachers, because these are actions of the mouth and not actions of the body, and because by faith a person acts with God, but by charity with men."

[9] But when one of those on the left heard that a connection is formed simply by hearing the Word and not by understanding the Word, he said irately, "Is it then by an understanding of the Word gained from the Holy Spirit only, when a person in church turns away or sits as deaf as a post, or when he sleeps, or gained simply from some exhalation from the Word, the book? What could be more absurd?"

After that a man from the group on the right, who excelled the rest in judgment, asked to be heard, and speaking said, "I heard someone say, 'I have planted a vineyard. Now I will drink wine till I am drunk.' But someone else said, 'Will you drink wine from your glass with your right hand?' And the first one said, 'No. I will drink it from an unseen glass with an unseen hand.' So the second one said, 'Then you surely won't get drunk!'"

Then the same man said, "Only listen to me, please. I say to you, drink wine from the Word understood. Do you not know that the Lord embodies the Word? Does the Word not come from the Lord? Is He not therefore present in it? If then you do good in obedience to the Word, do you not do it from the Lord, in obedience to His utterance and will? And if you then look to the Lord, He Himself also will lead you and do the good, and do it through you, so that you do it as though of yourself. Who can say, if he does something for a king, in obedience to his utterance and will, 'I do this of myself, in compliance with my own utterance or command, by my own will?'"

Following that the priest turned to the clergy and said, "Ministers of God, do not lead the flock astray!"

[10] Hearing this, a large majority of the group on the left went back and joined the group on the right. Some of the clergy also then said, "We have heard something we have not heard before. We are pastors. We will not abandon the sheep." And they went back with them and said, "That man spoke a true word. Who can say, if he acts in obedience to the Word, thus from the Lord, in obedience to His utterance and will, 'I do this of myself'? Who says, if he does something for a king, in obedience to his utterance and will, 'I am doing this of myself'?

"We see now the Divine providence in why the conjunction of faith and works acknowledged by the ecclesiastical body has not been found. It could not be found, because it cannot be imparted; for that faith is not faith in the Lord who embodies the Word, and so is not a faith derived from the Word."

But the rest of the priests went away, and waving their caps they cried, "Faith alone, faith alone! It will yet survive!"

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