188. The fourth experience ¹ .

Since I have been allowed by the Lord to see the wonders in the heavens and in the regions below the heavens, my instructions impose on me the duty of relating what I have seen.

I saw a magnificent palace, and at its heart a church. In the middle of this was a table made of gold, on which was the Word, with two angels standing by it. Seats were arranged around it in three rows. The seats of the first row were covered in silk cloth of purple colour, those of the second row in silk cloth of blue colour, those of the third row in white cloth. Beneath the roof, high above the table, was to be seen a curtain drawn across, glittering with precious stones, from which shone a radiance resembling the rainbow to be seen when the sky clears after rain. Then suddenly there appeared clergy to the same number as the seats, all dressed in their priestly vestments. At one side was a strong-box guarded by an angel, in which lay splendid vestments arranged in beautiful order.

[2] It was a council summoned by the Lord; and I heard a voice from heaven saying: 'Debate.' 'But on what subject?' they said. They were told to debate about the Lord the Saviour and the Holy Spirit. When they began to think about these subjects, they had no enlightenment; so they prayed for it, and then light poured down from heaven, which first of all lit up the backs of their heads, then their temples, and finally their faces. Then they began, speaking first as instructed about the Lord the Saviour.

The first question proposed for discussion was: who was it that took upon himself human form in the Virgin Mary? The angel who stood by the table holding the Word read to them this passage from Luke:

The angel said to Mary, Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and will give birth to a son; and you are to call his name Jesus. He will be mighty, and will be called the Son of the Most High. And Mary said to the angel, How will this be, seeing I have no knowledge of a man? And the angel answered and said, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; hence what is born of you will be holy, and will be called the Son of god, Luke 1:31-32, 34-35.

He also read this passage in Matthew:

The angel said to Joseph in a dream, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your betrothed, for what is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And Joseph did not know her, until she had given birth to her first-born son; and he called his name Jesus, Matthew 1:20, 25.

In addition he read many passages from the Gospels (such as Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 1:18; 3:16; 20:31), and many other passages where the Lord in His Human is called the Son of God, and where He from His Human calls Jehovah His Father, for instance, the passages in the Prophets which predict the coming of Jehovah Himself into the world. Among these were the following two from Isaiah:

On that day it will be said, Behold, He is our God, whom we have awaited to free us. He is Jehovah, whom we have awaited, let us exult and rejoice in His salvation, Isaiah 25:9.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the way of Jehovah, make smooth in the desert a path for our God. For the glory of Jehovah will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together. Behold, the Lord Jehovih comes in might, like a shepherd will He feed His flock, Isaiah 40:3, 5, 10-11.

[3] The angel said: 'Since Jehovah Himself came into the world and took upon Himself human form, [and by this means saved and redeemed man] ² therefore in the Prophets He is called the Saviour and the Redeemer.' Then he read to them the following passages:

Only among you is God, and there is no God besides. You surely are the hidden God, the God of Israel, the Saviour, Isaiah 45:14-15.

Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God besides me, there is no righteous God and Saviour beside me, Isaiah 45:21-22.

I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside me, Isaiah 43:11.

I am Jehovah your God; and you are not to acknowledge any God beside me, and there is no Saviour beside me, Hosea 13:4.

That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer, Isaiah 49:26; 60:16.

As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name, Isaiah 47:4.

Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name, Jeremiah 50:34.

Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer, Psalms 19:14.

Thus spoke Jehovah your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God, Isaiah 48:17; 43:3 ³ ; Isaiah 49:7; 54:8.

You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from eternity is your name, Isaiah 63:16.

Thus spoke Jehovah your Redeemer, I am Jehovah the maker of everything, and I alone by myself, Isaiah 44:24.

Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the first and the last and there is no God beside me, Isaiah 44:6.

Jehovah Zebaoth is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He will be called God of all the earth, Isaiah 54:5.

Behold, the days will come, when I shall raise up for David a righteous shoot, who will reign as King; and this is His name, Jehovah our righteousness, Jeremiah 23:5-6; 33:15-16, On that day Jehovah will be King over all the earth; on that day Jehovah will be one, and His name one, Zechariah 14:9.

[4] Both sets of passages were accepted as proofs by those who sat on the seats, and they said with one accord that Jehovah Himself took upon Himself human form to redeem and save mankind. But then a voice spoke up from the Roman Catholics, who had hidden behind the altar, saying: 'How can Jehovah God become man? Is He not the Creator of the universe?' One of those sitting in the second row of seats turned round and said: 'Who did then?' The one who had been behind the altar stood up near it and replied: 'The Son from eternity.' But he received the reply: 'Is not the Son from eternity according to your creed also the Creator of the universe? And what is the Son but God born from eternity? How can the Divine essence, which is one and indivisible, be separated so that one part of it came down, and not the whole at once?'

[5] The second debate about the Lord was whether the Father and He are one, just as the soul and the body are one. They said that this followed because the soul is from the father. Then one of those sitting in the third row read the following words from the Creed known as Athanasian:

Although our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man, still there are not two, but one Christ; indeed He is utterly one. He is one person. For as the soul and body make up one man, so God and man is one Christ.

The reader said that the Creed containing these words is accepted throughout the Christian world, including the Roman Catholics.

'What need,' they said, 'is there to go on? God the Father and the Lord are one, just as soul and body are one. Since this is so, we see that the Lord's Human is Divine, because it is the Human of Jehovah; and the Lord is to be approached in His Divine Human, because this is the only possible way to approach the Divine called the Father.'

[6] This conclusion of theirs was confirmed by the angel citing many passages from the Word, including:

A child is born for us, a son is given to us, whose name is Wonderful, Counsellor, God, Hero, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace, Isaiah 9:6.

Also:

Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us. You, Jehovah, are our Father, our Redeemer from eternity is your name, Isaiah 63:16.

In John:

Jesus said, He who believes in me believes in Him who sent me, and he who sees me sees Him who sent me, John 12:44-45.

Philip said to Jesus, Show us the Father. Jesus said to him, He who has seen me has seen the Father. Why then do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? Believe me, I am in the Father and the Father is in me, John 14:8-11. Jesus said, I and the Father are one, John 10:30.

Also:

All things which the Father has are mine, and all of mine are the Father's, John 16:15; 17:10.

Finally:

Jesus said, I am the way, truth and life; no one comes to the Father except through me, John 14:6.

The reader went on to say that similar statements to those made here by the Lord about Himself and His Father can also be made by a man about himself and his soul. On hearing this all declared with one heart and voice that the Lord's Human is Divine, and this must be approached in order to approach the Father, because by means of the Human Jehovah God brought Himself into the world and made Himself visible to human eyes, and thus accessible. Likewise He made Himself visible and accessible to the ancients in human form, but at that time by means of an angel. But because this form represented the Lord who was to come, among the ancients everything that concerned the church was representative.

[7] This was followed by a debate about the Holy Spirit. To begin it the popular idea about God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was presented, namely, that God the Father sits on high, the Son at His right hand, and they send out from themselves the Holy Spirit, to enlighten, teach, justify and sanctify men. But a voice was then heard from heaven, saying. 'We find this mode of thought intolerable. Surely everyone knows that Jehovah God is omnipresent. A person who knows and acknowledges this will also acknowledge that it is He who enlightens, teaches, justifies and sanctifies, and that there is no mediating God separate from Himself, much less from two other Gods, as one person is separate from another. You must therefore rid yourselves of the first idea, seeing it is meaningless, and accept this, which is correct, and then you will see this plainly.'

[8] But at this point a voice was heard from the Roman Catholics who were standing near the altar of the church, saying: 'What then is the Holy Spirit who is mentioned in the Word, in the Gospels and Paul, and by which so many of the learned clergy, especially ours, allege they are guided? Is there any Christian to-day who denies the existence of the Holy Spirit and His activity?' On hearing this one of those sitting in the second row turned round and said: 'You claim that the Holy Spirit is a person by Himself and God by Himself. But what is the meaning of a person going forth and proceeding from a person, if it is not the activity which goes forth and proceeds? One person cannot go forth and proceed from another, but his activity can. What is meant by God going forth and proceeding from God, if not the Divine which goes forth and proceeds? One God cannot go forth and proceed from another by means of a third; but the Divine can from a single God.'

[9] On hearing this the assembly in session reached the unanimous conclusion that the Holy Spirit is not a person by Himself, so not God by Himself either, but the Holy Divine which goes forth and proceeds from the one omnipresent God, who is the Lord. The angels who were standing by the golden table on which the Word was placed said to this: 'Good. Nowhere in the Old Testament do we read that the prophets spoke the Word from the Holy Spirit, but from Jehovah; and where the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the New Testament, the Divine which proceeds is meant. This is the Divine which enlightens, teaches, quickens, reforms and regenerates.'

[10] This was followed by another debate about the Holy Spirit: from whom does the Divine meant by the Holy Spirit proceed, from the Father, or from the Lord? While they were discussing this, a light shone on them from heaven which allowed them to see that the Holy Divine, meant by the Holy Spirit, does not proceed from the Father by means of the Lord, but from the Lord acted upon by the Father; as for comparison in man, his activity does not proceed from the soul by means of the body, but from the body acted upon by the soul.

This was confirmed by the angel standing at the table by these passages in the Word:

He whom the Father has sent speaks the words of God; not by measure does God give him the Spirit. The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand, John 3:34-35.

A shoot will come forth from the stock of Jesse; the Spirit of Jehovah will rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and intelligence, the spirit of counsel and power, Isaiah 11:1-2.

The Spirit of Jehovah was put upon him, and was in him, Isaiah 42:1; 59:19-20; 61:1; Luke 4:18.

When the Holy Spirit comes, whom I shall send you from the Father, John 15:26.

He will glorify me, because He will take from what is mine and communicate it to you. All things that the Father has are mine. That is why I have said that He will take from what is mine and communicate it to you, John 16:14-15.

If I go away, I will send the Comforter to you, John 16:7.

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, John 14:26.

The Holy Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified, John 7:39.

But after His glorification:

Jesus breathed upon the disciples and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit, John 20:22.

And in Revelation:

Who will not glorify your name, Lord, since you alone are holy? Revelation 15:4.

[11] Since the Holy Spirit means the Lord's Divine activity from His Divine omnipresence, so when He spoke to the disciples about the Holy Spirit, which He was to send from the Father, He also said:

I will not leave you bereft; I go away and come to you; and on that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I in you, John 14:18, 20, 28.

Shortly before He left the world, He said:

Behold, I am with you always up to the ending of the age, Matthew 28:20.

After reading these passages to them the angel said: 'It is plain from these and many other passages in the Word that the Divine called the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Lord acted upon by the Father.' Those in session replied: 'This is Divine truth.'

[12] Finally the following resolution was passed: 'We have seen clearly from the deliberations in this council, and thus acknowledge as a holy truth, that in the Lord God the Saviour Jesus Christ there is a Divine Trinity, consisting of the originating Divine called the Father, the Human Divine called the Son, and the Divine which proceeds called the Holy Spirit.' And they cried out together that in Christ all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9). 'Thus there is one God in the church.'

[13] When this magnificent council had reached these conclusions, its members rose; and the angel in charge came and brought from the strong-box for each of those who had taken part in the session splendid garments with here and there gold threads interwoven, and said: 'Accept these wedding garments.' Then they were taken in glory to the new Christian heaven, with which the Lord's church on earth, the New Jerusalem, is to be linked.

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8568. 'And the people thirsted there for water' means an increase in the desire for truth. This is clear from the meaning of 'thirsting' as craving and desiring, and as having reference to truth just as 'hungering' has reference to good; and from the meaning of 'water' as the truth of faith, dealt with above in 8562. The fact that 'thirsting' is craving and desiring - desiring truth, meant by 'water' - is plainly evident from a large number of places in the Word, such as in Amos,

Behold, the days are going to come, in which I will send a famine on the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of Jehovah. And they will wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east; and they will run to and fro to seek the Word of Jehovah, and will not find it. On that day the beautiful virgins and the young men will faint for thirst. Amos 8:11-13.

The desire to know the truth is described here by 'thirsting'. The desire for truth is meant by 'I will not send a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of Jehovah' and by 'they will run to and fro to seek the Word of Jehovah'. The lack of truth and a resulting deprivation of spiritual life is described by 'on that day the beautiful virgins and the young men will faint for thirst', 'the beautiful virgins' being those with affections for good, and 'the young men' those with affections for truth.

[2] In Isaiah,

Ho, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy [and] eat! Come and buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isaiah 55:1.

'Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters' plainly stands for one desiring the truths of faith. 'Buying wine and milk without price' stands for acquiring from the Lord, thus for nothing, the good and truth of faith. For the meaning of 'the waters' as the truth of faith, see above in 8562; for 'wine' as the good of faith, 6377; and also 'milk', 2184. Anyone may see that 'going to the waters and buying wine and milk' is not used to mean the acquisition of wine and milk, but the kinds of things that belong to heaven and the Church.

[3] The like occurs in John,

To him who thirsts I will give from the spring of the water of life for nothing. Revelation 21:6.

'The spring of the water of life' stands for the truth and good of faith. 'The thirsting one' stands for one desiring them from affection for them, as accords with the Lord's words in John,

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but he who drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up into eternal life. John 4:13-14.

'Water' here plainly stands for the truth of faith obtained from the Word, and so from the Lord; and 'not thirsting' stands for his being never again in want of truth.

[4] Something similar appears elsewhere in John,

Jesus said, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. John 6:35.

And in the same gospel,

Jesus cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts let him come to Me and drink. Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water. John 7:37-38.

'Thirsting stands for desiring truth, 'drinking for receiving instruction, and 'rivers of living water' for Divine Truth that flows from the Lord alone.

[5] In Isaiah,

To the thirsty bring water, O inhabitants of the land of Tema; meet with his bread the fugitive. Isaiah 21:14.

'To the thirsty bring water' stands for giving instruction in truths to one desiring them, and so refreshing the life of his soul. In the same prophet,

The fool will speak folly, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against Jehovah; to empty the soul of the hungry one, and to cause the drink of the thirsting one to fail. Isaiah 32:6.

'The hungry one' stands for one desiring good, and 'one thirsting for drink' for one desiring truth.

[6] In the same prophet,

The poor and the needy are seeking water, but there is none; their tongue is parched with thirst. I will open streams on the sloping heights, and I will place springs in the midst of valleys; I will make the wilderness into a pool of water, and the dry land into wellsprings of water. Isaiah 41:17-18.

It is perfectly clear to anyone that 'seeking water' is seeking truth, that

'being parched with thirst' is being deprived of spiritual life owing to the lack of truth, and that 'streams, springs, a pool, and wellsprings of water' are the truths of faith in which they are to receive instruction.

In the same prophet,

Say, Jehovah has redeemed His servant Jacob. At that time they will not thirst; in waste places He will lead them. He will make water flow for them from the rock; and He will cleave the rock so that water flows out. Isaiah 48:20-21.

'They will not thirst' stands for their having no lack of truths; here 'water' plainly stands for the truths of faith.

[7] In the same prophet,

They will not hunger, nor will they thirst, nor will heat or the sun strike them; for the One having mercy on them will lead them, so that also by the wellsprings of water He will lead them. Isaiah 49:10.

'They will not hunger' stands for their having no lack of good, 'they will not thirst' for their having no lack of truth. 'Wellsprings of water' stands for cognitions of truth out of the Word.

[8] Something similar occurs in Moses,

Jehovah was leading you through a great and frightening wilderness, with serpents, fiery snakes, and scorpions, and dry places where there was no water; and He brought water for you out of the rock of the crag. Deuteronomy 8:15.

In Isaiah,

Behold, your God will come. At that time waters will break forth in the wilderness, and streams in the plain of the wilderness; and the dry place will become a pool and the thirsty ground wellsprings of water. Isaiah 35:4, 6-7.

'Waters in the wilderness which will break forth', 'streams', 'a pool', and

'wellsprings of water' plainly stand for the truths of faith and cognitions of those truths, which would be received from the Lord when He came into the world.

[9] In David,

O God, [You are] my God; in the morning I seek You. My soul thirsts for You; my flesh in a dry land longs for You, and I am weary without water. Psalms 63:1.

Here 'thirsting' has reference to truth, and 'I am weary without water' stands for the fact that there are no truths. 'Thirst' stands for a lack of truth and the resulting deprivation of spiritual life in Isaiah,

Therefore My people will go into exile because they have no knowledge, and their honourable men will be famished, ¹ and their multitude parched with thirst. Isaiah 5:13.

In the same prophet,

I make the rivers into a desert; their fish become putrid because there is no water, and they will die of thirst. Isaiah 50:2.

[10] From all this one may now see what is meant in the present chapter by there was no water for the people to drink, verse 1; by their saying, Give us water and let us drink, verse 2; by the people thirsted there for water, verse 3; and by the declaration that water would come out of the rock, verse 6. All of this makes it clear that their grumbling because of the lack of water means temptation arising from a lack of truth. For when a person enters temptation because of a lack of truth he is gripped by an intense desire for it, and at the same time by despair of eternal salvation on account of this. These feelings are responsible for the grief at that time and for the complaining.

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