4918. 'That behold, there were twins in her womb' means the two essentials of the Church. This is clear from the meaning of 'twins' as the two - good and truth - dealt with in 3299; and from the meaning of 'the womb' as the place where good and truth have been conceived and are lying, and consequently the place where the essentials of the Church are lying. In the genuine sense 'the womb' means the inmost centre of conjugial love where innocence is present, for the womb corresponds to that love in the Grand Man. Now because conjugial love has its origin in the love of good and truth, which love is at the heart of the heavenly marriage, and because this marriage is heaven itself or the Lord's kingdom, and the Lord's kingdom on earth is the Church, therefore 'the womb' also means the Church. For the Church exists where the marriage of good and truth exists. This explains why 'opening the womb' means the resulting doctrines taught by the Churches, 3856, as well as the ability to receive the truths and goods of the Church, 3967; while 'going out of the womb' means being born again or being regenerated, 4904, that is, becoming the Church since one who is born again or regenerated becomes the Church.

[2] Since 'going out of the womb' means rebirth, and therefore the Church, the Lord is called in the Word 'He who formed from the womb' and 'He who brought out of the womb', and those who have been regenerated and become the Church are said 'to have been carried from the womb', as in Isaiah,

Thus said Jehovah. your Maker. He who formed you from the womb, and who helps you. Isaiah 44:2.

In the same prophet,

Thus said Jehovah, your Redeemer, He who formed you from the womb. Isaiah 44:24.

In the same prophet,

Thus said Jehovah. who formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring back Jacob to Him, and that Israel might be gathered to Him. Isaiah 49:5.

In David,

Jehovah who brought me out of the womb. Psalms 22:9.

In Isaiah,

Hearken to Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel who have been carried from the womb, and borne from the belly. Isaiah 46:3.

In David,

The wicked are alienated from the womb, and go astray from the belly, with lying words. Psalms 58:3.

Here 'being alienated from the womb' means alienation from the good fostered by the Church, and 'going astray from the belly' straying from the truth. In Hosea,

The pains of childbirth will come upon him, he is an unwise son, for now he does not present himself at the womb of sons. Hosea 13:13.

'Not presenting himself at the womb of sons' stands for not coming to the good of truth fostered by the Church.

[3] In the same prophet,

Their glory will fly away like a bird, away from birth, from the belly, and from conception. Hosea 9:11.

This means that the truth of the Church will perish fully - 'from birth' being that to which birth is given, 'from the belly' that which is undergoing gestation, 'from conception' that which is taking rise. In Isaiah,

I knew that you would certainly act treacherously, and that you were called [a man] of transgression from the womb. Isaiah 48:8.

This means that from the time when the Church first began he was like this. In John,

A great sign was seen in heaven - a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Carrying in the belly however, she cried out in labour, and was in anguish to give birth. Revelation 12:1-2.

'The woman' is the Church, 252, 253, 255. 'The sun' with which she was clothed is the good of love, 30-38, 1529, 1530, 2441, 2495, 4060, 4696; 'the moon' which was under her feet is the truth of faith, 30-38, 1529, 1530, 2120, 2495, 4696; 'the stars' are cognitions of good and truth, 2495, 2849, 4697 - there being 'twelve stars' because 'twelve' means all things, thus all aspects of faith, 577, 2089, 2129 (end), 2130 (end), 3272, 3858, 3913; 'carrying in the belly' is the truth of the Church that had been conceived; 'being in labour and in anguish to give birth' is the fact that it was received with difficulty.

2129. There are also other types of tumults, or rather of conflicts, which also convey the idea of a Last Judgement and by which communities harmfully joined together as regards their interiors are dissolved. Concerning them let the following be mentioned: Such spirits are driven into a condition in which they do not think in their normal way as a community, that is, one with another, but each one independently. As a result of their thinking, each at variance with the others, and of each muttering something different from the rest, an uproar is produced which sounds like that of many waters; and conflict with one another takes place such as defies description which arises out of the mishmash of opinions concerning firmly established truths, which are at the time the substance of their thoughts and speech. That mishmash is such as may be called spiritual chaos.

[2] The sound of these conflicting and confused uproarings was threefold. The first flowed in around the head, and I was told it was that of thoughts. The second flowed in towards the left temple. I was told that this was a conflict of reasonings about certain truths in which they were unwilling to pin their faith. The third flowed in from above over on the right. It was rasping though less confused, a rasping sound directed first this way, then that. I was told that this was the product of truths clashing which were being turned this way and that by means of reasonings. While these conflicts were going on there were other spirits who spoke to me, telling me in speech that rose clearly above all that noise the meaning of every single thing.

[3] The matters which they reasoned about were chiefly these - whether the statement that the twelve apostles were going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel was to be understood literally, and also whether other people who have endured persecution and affliction were to be allowed into heaven. Each one reasoned in accordance with what had taken his fancy during his lifetime. Some of them however who had been brought back into associations with one another and into order were then informed that those descriptions were to be understood in a completely different way, that is to say, that 'apostles' is not used to mean apostles, nor 'thrones' to mean thrones, nor 'tribes' tribes, nor indeed is 'twelve' used to mean twelve. Instead apostles, thrones, tribes, and also twelve, meant the first and foremost matters of faith, 2089. They also said that such matters of faith are the starting-point and the criteria from which everyone is judged. And over and above all this they were shown that the apostles have no power to judge anyone at all, and that all judgement is the Lord's alone.

[4] As regards the second point which they reasoned about, this should not be taken to mean that only those who have endured persecution and affliction will enter heaven, but that the rich no less than the poor will do so, those who have held important positions no less than those whose position has been humble. Furthermore the Lord takes pity on all, especially on people who have endured spiritual afflictions and temptations, which are persecutions by the evil, thus on those who acknowledge that of themselves they are wretched and who believe that it is through the Lord's mercy alone they are saved.