5603. 'And Judah said to Israel his father' means a perception received from the good of the Church regarding these matters. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perceiving, often dealt with already; from the representation of 'Judah' as the good of the Church, dealt with above in 5583; and from the representation of 'Israel' as the internal spiritual Church, dealt with in 3305, 4286. From this it is evident that 'Judah said to Israel his father' means a perception the Church had which it received from its own good.

5583. 'And Judah said to him' means the good which existed in the Church. This is clear from the representation of 'Judah' as the good existing in the Church, dealt with in 3654. The fact that now Judah speaks about Benjamin, whereas previously, in verses Genesis 42:36, 37 of the previous chapter, Reuben was the one to do so, is an arcanum which only the internal sense can bring to light. The same applies to the fact that when Reuben spoke about Benjamin, Jacob is referred to in Verse 36 of the previous chapter as Jacob, whereas now, when Judah is speaking about Benjamin, Jacob is referred to in verses 6, 8, 11 as Israel. No one can deny that some such arcanum lies within this, but what that arcanum is cannot possibly be known simply from the story told in the sense of the letter, as is also the case in other places where Jacob is sometimes referred to as Jacob, and at other times as Israel, 4286. The actual arcanum embodied in all this will in the Lord's Divine mercy be stated in what follows. The reason Judah is the speaker now is that the subject is the good of spiritual truth which needs to be acquired, 5582. Therefore here Judah, who represents the good existing with the Church, is the one to speak to Israel, who represents the good of spiritual truth. He also offers himself as a surety for Benjamin, who represents the intermediary; for the intermediary must be joined by means of good to what has to be acquired.