169. When the angelic spirits from that world came into view, they hailed us asking who we were and what we wanted. We said we were travellers who had been brought to their abode, and they had nothing to fear from us. For they were afraid that we were some of those who disturb their ideas of God, faith and suchlike; it was to avoid them they had retreated in that direction towards their world, seeking somewhere they could escape them. Asked what ideas these visitors used to disturb them, they replied the idea of three [Persons], and of a Divinity in God with no human feature, when all the time they know and perceive that God is one and is a man. Then we grasped that those who upset them and whom they avoided, were from our world. This was also evident from the fact that it is those from our world who in the next life travel around as the result of the fondness and pleasure they take in travel, which they acquired in the world. For in other worlds people do not travel like this. Later we learned that they were monks, who had travelled our globe with the purpose of converting the heathen. We therefore told them that they were right to avoid them, since their motive is not teaching, but gaining advantage and taking control. At first, we said, they aim to ensnare people's minds by various means, but they end up by making them into slaves under their orders. Moreover, we said, they were right not to let such people upset their concept of God.

[2] They went on to say that their visitors also confused them by saying that the spirits of that world ought to have faith and believe what their visitors said. Their reply to this was that they did not know the meaning of faith or believing, since they could perceive in themselves that a thing was so. They came from the Lord's celestial kingdom, where interior perception allows everyone to know truths which we call matters of faith. They are enlightened by the Lord, and in this differ from those in the spiritual kingdom. A further sign that the angelic spirits of that world came from the celestial kingdom was the sight of a flame, which is the source of their ideas. For the light in the celestial kingdom is like a flame, but in the spiritual kingdom brilliant white.

Those from the celestial kingdom when speaking about truths never say more than 'yes, yes' or 'no, no'; they never reason about whether a matter is so or not. It is these of whom the Lord says:

Your speech is to be 'yes, yes, no, no'. Anything further is from evil. [Matthew 5:37]

This is why those spirits said they did not know what it was to have faith or believe. They regard this as being as if someone told his companion, who could see houses or trees with his own eyes, that he ought to have faith or believe they were houses or trees, when he can clearly see that they are. That is the nature of those from the Lord's celestial kingdom, and of these angelic spirits. ¹

[3] We told them that there are few in our world endowed with interior perception, because when they are young they learn truths which they do not put into practice. A person has two faculties, called the intellect and the will. Those who only allow truths into their memory and so a little way into the intellect, and not into their life, that is, into the will, being unable to have any enlightenment or inward sight from the Lord, say that things must be believed or one must have faith. They also reason about truths, asking whether they are true or not; in fact, they are unwilling to have them perceived by any inward sight or any kind of enlightenment through the intellect. They say this because truths for them are devoid of light from heaven, and those who see without light from heaven can see falsities as truths and truths as falsities. As a result many people in this world have become so blinded, that, even though a person does not put truths into practice, or live by them, they still say he can be saved by faith alone; as if a person's humanity did not come from and depend on the way he lives, but on knowing such things and believing them without living by them.

[4] Afterwards we talked with them about the Lord, about love directed to Him and towards the neighbour, and about regeneration. We said that loving the Lord means loving the commandments He gives, which is living according to them out of love. ² Love towards the neighbour is wishing and consequently doing good to one's fellow citizen, one's country, one's church and the Lord's kingdom, not selfishly so as to be noticed or to earn merit, but from an affection for good. ³ On regeneration we said that those who are regenerated and put truths at once into practice in their lives, come to be able to perceive them inwardly. But those who first take truths into their memory, and then wish for and do what they demand are those who have faith; for they act from faith, which is then called conscience. The spirits said that they perceived this was so, and hence could see what faith was. I spoke with them by means of spiritual ideas, which allow such matters to be presented and grasped lucidly.

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