5477. 'And they did not know that Joseph was hearing' means that the natural light in which those truths dwell does not engender any belief that spiritual light renders all things visible. This is clear from the representation of 'the sons of Jacob who did not know' as the truths which the external Church possesses, and so are present in the natural, often dealt with already - from which comes the meaning that the natural light in which those truths dwell does not engender any belief; and from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial of the spiritual, which dwells in spiritual light. But this spiritual light renders truths in the natural visible, and this is meant by 'Joseph was hearing'; for 'hearing' means both obeying and discerning, 5017. Thus spiritual light renders truths in the natural visible; but natural light cannot do the same for truths in the spiritual.

[2] The situation with natural light and spiritual light is as follows. Natural light flows from the sun in the world, and spiritual light flows from the Sun in heaven, which is the Lord. All the truths of faith that a person has learned since early childhood come to be understood by him with the help of the kinds of objects, and the ideas formed from these, that originate in the light of the world. Thus every single thing is seen in a natural way; for as long as he lives in the world all the ideas constituting a person's thought are based on the kinds of things that exist in the world. If therefore these things are taken away from him his thought is totally destroyed. One who has not been regenerated has no knowledge at all of the existence of spiritual light, not even of the existence in heaven of a light that has nothing in common with the light of the world. Still less does that person know that spiritual light is what lights up ideas and objects that originate in the light of the world and is what enables a person to think, draw conclusions, and reflect on them. The reason such spiritual light enables him to do this is that that light is wisdom itself which goes forth from the Lord; and that wisdom manifests itself as the light which the angels in heaven see before them. That light renders visible every single thing beneath it, that is, every single thing present with a person which is a product of natural light. But the reverse does not happen unless the person has been regenerated, in which case the things that belong to heaven, that is, forms of goodness and truth, are lit up by spiritual light and become visible in the natural as if in a representative mirror.

[3] From this it is evident that the Lord, who is Light itself, sees every single thing present in a person's thought and will, and present indeed in the whole natural creation; nothing at all escapes His notice. From all this one may now recognize what is involved here - that natural light in which those truths dwell does not engender any belief that spiritual light renders all things visible, meant by the words 'they did not know that Joseph was hearing'. Much the same is implied by the statement above in verse 8, 'Joseph recognized his brothers and they did not recognize him'. For these words mean that the truths of the Church were seen by the celestial of the spiritual by the light it possessed, and that truth from the Divine was not seen in natural light that was not yet brightened with heavenly light; see 5427, 5428.

5427. 'And Joseph recognized his brothers' means that the truths of the Church were visible to the celestial of the spiritual in the light that this possessed. This is clear from the meaning of 'recognizing' as perceiving, seeing, and so being visible; from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial of the spiritual, dealt with already; and from the meaning of 'his brothers' as the general truths known to the Church, dealt with above in 5409, 5419. And Since 'Joseph recognized his brothers' means that those truths - the general truths known to the Church - were visible to the celestial of the spiritual, it follows that they were seen by the light in which the celestial of the spiritual dwells and so by the light which the celestial of the spiritual possesses. In this light, which is truth from the Divine, 5417, every single truth below - that is, within the natural - is visible. But the reverse is not possible if no intermediary is present, still less if no agreement between the two sides exists, no agreement enabling the two to be joined together. This becomes quite clear from the consideration that angels dwelling in the heavens, and so in the light of heaven, can see every single thing that happens in the world of spirits, which is immediately below the heavens, as well as every single thing that happens on the earth of the lower ones, and indeed that happens in the hells. But the reverse is not possible.

[2] It is also the case that the angels of a higher heaven can see everything that is happening in the heaven beneath them, but the reverse is not so unless an intermediary exists. Intermediary spirits also serve as the means by which communication forward and back takes place. When therefore those who are in a lower position and have no intermediary, and more particularly those who are not in agreement with the ones above them, look at the light of heaven, they see absolutely nothing at all; everything there appears to them to dwell in total obscurity. But in fact those in the place where they look dwell in the brightest light. This may be illustrated by the following unique experience: A large city once appeared in front of me, where there were thousands of different, delightful and beautiful sights. I saw these because an intermediary had been provided; yet the spirits present with me could not see a single thing because they had no intermediary. I was told that even though they are present in that place those who are not in agreement with the ones above them discern nothing whatever of the things existing there.

[3] The same is similarly true of a person's interior man or spirit, which is also called his soul. The interior man can see every single thing present and taking place in the exterior man; but the reverse is not possible unless the two are in agreement and an intermediary is present. To the exterior man therefore, when it is not in agreement with the interior man, the interior man does not appear to have any existence. It appears to be so completely non-existent that when anything is said about the interior man, it seems to the exterior man either to be so obscure that it is unwilling even to contemplate it or to be nothing it can believe in. But when agreement between the two does exist, the exterior man sees, with the help of the intermediary, what is going on in the interior man. For then the light which the interior man possesses enters into the light which the exterior or natural man possesses; that is, heavenly light passes into natural light and brightens it, and in this brighter light what is happening to the interior man is made visible. This is the origin of the intelligence and wisdom which the exterior man possesses. But if no intermediary is present, and especially if no agreement exists, the interior man sees and perceives what is going on in the exterior man and also to some extent guides it; the reverse however does not happen. More than that, if contrariety exists - that is to say, if the exterior man completely perverts or snuffs out what comes in by way of the interior man - the interior man is deprived of the light it receives from heaven, heaven is inaccessible to it, and a communication from hell with the exterior man is opened up. You may see more about these matters in what now follows below.