5121. 'And Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perception, dealt with in 1791, 1815, 1819, 1822, 1898, 1919, 2080, 2619, 2862, 3509, 3395, in this case as revelation resulting from perception, since the subject is a dream and its interpretation, and all revelation is either the result of talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks or else the result of perception, dealt with below; from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial within the natural, dealt with above in 5086, 5087, 5106; and from the meaning of 'the interpretation' as what it held within it, also dealt with above, in 5093, 5105, 5107. From this it is evident that 'Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it.

[2] With regard to revelations resulting either from perception or from talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks, it should be recognized that people who are governed by good and from this by truth, especially those who are governed by good flowing from love to the Lord, receive revelation as a result of perception. But those who are not governed by good or from this by truth can indeed receive revelations, but not those that are the result of perception, only those which come to them through a voice which they hear speaking within themselves and so through angels from the Lord. This kind of revelation is external, whereas the other kind is internal. Revelation resulting from perception is the kind that angels, especially celestial ones, receive. It was also the kind received by members of the Most Ancient Church, and by some members of the Ancient Church too; but scarcely anyone receives such at the present day. Very many people however, including those who have not been governed by good, have received revelations from conversations [with angels] which did not involve any perception, the same as with those receiving revelations through visions or through dreams.

[3] Most of the revelations received by the prophets in the Jewish Church were of this kind - they heard a voice, saw a vision, or dreamed a dream. But because they had no perception these were merely verbal or visual revelations which did not involve any perception about what was really meant by them. For genuine perception comes from the Lord through heaven; it fills the understanding with spiritual ideas and leads it, as may be perceived, to think along the lines of, and inwardly to recognize, the true nature of a thing. The source of that power of recognition is not known, but the understanding imagines that it begins within itself and springs from the interconnected ideas it has present within itself. But in fact that power is a dictate coming from the Lord by way of heaven into the interior parts of ones thought regarding the things that are above and beyond the natural and the senses, that is, the kinds of things that belong to the spiritual world or heaven. From all this one may see what revelation resulting from perception is. But the revelation resulting from perception which the Lord, who is represented here by 'Joseph', had - which revelation is the subject here in the internal sense - sprang from the Divine within Himself, and so originated in Himself.

3509. 'And Rebekah said to Jacob her son - she said' means the Lord's perception from Divine Truth concerning natural truth. This is clear from the representation of 'Rebekah' as the Divine Truth of the Lord's Divine Rational, dealt with in 3012, 3013, 3077; from the meaning of 'saying' as perceiving, dealt with in 1791, 1815, 1819, 1822, 1898, 1919, 2080, 2506, 2515, 2552, 2619; and from the representation of 'Jacob' as the Lord's Natural as regards truth, dealt with in 3305. From this it is evident that 'Rebekah said to Jacob her son' means the Lord's perception from Divine Truth concerning natural truth. For on the one hand the Lord wished to acquire truth from the Divine Good of the Divine Rational, represented by 'Isaac', through the good of the Natural, represented by 'Esau', by means of which truth He would glorify, or make Divine, the Natural. But on the other hand the Lord wished to acquire truth from the Divine Truth of the Divine Rational, represented by 'Rebekah', through the truth of the Natural, represented by 'Jacob', by means of which truth He would glorify, or make Divine, the Rational. But these two wishes of His cannot be grasped unless light is thrown on the subject from what happens with man when being regenerated or made new by the Lord. And even then it cannot be grasped unless one knows the situation with the rational as regards good and as regards truth there. So let this matter be discussed briefly.

[2] The rational mind is distinguished into two separate mental powers, one called the will, the other the understanding. That which goes forth from the will when someone is being regenerated is called good, and that which goes forth from the understanding is called truth. Until a person has been regenerated the will does not act in unison with the understanding. Instead the will desires good whereas the understanding desires truth; and so different is each desire from the other that the effort of the will is perceived to be quite distinct and separate from that of the understanding. This is perceived however only by those who stop to reflect, knowing what the will is and the things that constitute this, and what the understanding is and the things that constitute that. But it is not perceived by those who do not know those things and therefore do not stop to reflect. And there is the added reason that the natural mind is regenerated by way of the rational mind, see 3493, and indeed according to order as follows: The good of the rational does not pass directly into the good of the natural and regenerate it but by way of truth which belongs to the understanding, thus giving the appearance that it enters in from the truth of the rational. These are the matters which this chapter deals with in the internal sense; for 'Isaac' is the rational mind as regards good present in the will, 'Rebekah' as regards truth present in the understanding. 'Esau' is the good of the natural springing from the good of the rational, 'Jacob' the truth of the natural springing from the good of the rational by way of the truth there.

[3] These considerations show the kind of arcana contained in the internal sense of the Word; yet there are very few which can be described in a way intelligible to the human mind. The number of those which are beyond man's comprehension and defy description is unlimited. For the more deeply the Word goes, that is, the more interiorly into heaven, the more unlimited and also the more indescribable do they become not only to man but also to angels of the lower heaven. And when it reaches the inmost heaven the angels there perceive that the arcana are infinite and, being Divine are quite beyond their comprehension. Such is the nature of the Word.