460. The second experience ¹ .

Once when I was looking around the spiritual world I heard a noise like the grinding of teeth, and also a throbbing sound, and mixed with them hoarse cries. I asked what this was. 'There are colleges,' said the angels with me, 'which we call places of entertainment, where they hold disputations. Their debates sound like this if heard from a distance, but from close by they are heard only as disputations.'

On approaching I saw some huts made of plaited reeds stuck together with mud. I wanted to see in through a window, but there was none. I was not allowed to go in through the door, because if I did light would flood in from heaven and cause confusion. Then suddenly a window was made on the right, and then I heard complaints that they were in darkness; but a little later a window was made on the left and that on the right was shut, and then little by little the darkness was dispelled, and they could see one another by their own sort of light. After this I was permitted to go in by the door and listen.

There was a table in the middle with benches round it; but it seemed to me that they were all standing on the benches disputing hotly about faith and charity. One party claimed that faith was the essential of the church, the other that charity was. Those who made faith the essential said: 'Surely faith guides our dealings with God and charity our dealings with men. Is not faith then heavenly and charity earthly? Surely it is by heavenly things, not earthly ones, that we are saved. Again, surely God can from heaven give us faith, because it is heavenly, while a person can give himself charity, because it is earthly; and what a person gives himself has nothing to do with the church and therefore does not save. Surely like this no one can be justified in the sight of God by so-called charitable deeds. Believe us, it is by faith alone that we are not only justified, but also sanctified, provided that faith is not polluted by the presence of merit-seeking deeds among the charitable ones.' They added many more arguments.

[2] But those who made charity the essential of the church hotly contested these arguments, claiming that it is charity, not faith, which saves. 'Surely God holds all men dear and wishes good to all? How can God do this except by means of men? Surely God does not grant only the ability to talk with men about matters that concern faith, without enabling men to do charitable acts? Do you not see how absurd it is of you to talk of charity being earthly? Charity is heavenly, and because you do not do charitable good, your faith is earthly. How do you receive your faith, except like a block of wood or a stone? "By listening to the Word" you will say. But how can the Word act on someone if he merely listens to it? How can it act upon a block of wood or a stone? Perhaps you are quickened without any awareness of it; but what sort of quickening is it, apart from your ability to say that faith alone justifies and saves. But you do not know what faith is, or what sort of faith is saving faith.'

[3] Then someone got up whom the angel talking with me called a syncretist. He took off his wig and put it on the table, but immediately put it back on his head, because he was bald. 'Listen,' he said, 'you are all wrong. The truth is that faith is spiritual and charity is moral, but they are none the less linked. The link is effected by means of the Word, as well as by the Holy Spirit, and by the result produced, which can indeed be called obedience, though man has no part in it; because when faith is introduced, a person knows no more about it than a statue. I have pondered the subject for a long time, and finally reached the solution, that a person can receive from God faith which is spiritual, but he cannot be moved by God to charity which is spiritual, any more than a block of wood can.'

[4] This speech was greeted by applause from those who championed faith alone, but with disapproval from those who championed charity. They said indignantly: 'Listen, friend, you are unaware that there is moral life which is spiritual, and moral life which is purely natural. Spiritual moral life is found in those who do good coming from God, but still as if of their own accord, purely natural moral life in those who do good coming from hell, and yet still as if of their own accord.'

[5] I said that the dispute sounded like the grinding of teeth, and a throbbing sound, with hoarse cries mixed with them. The dispute which sounded like the grinding of teeth came from those who made faith the sole essential of the church, and the throbbing came from those who made charity the sole essential of the church, the hoarse cries mixed with them came from the syncretist. The reason why they sounded like this at a distance was that they had all in the world engaged in disputes, and had not shunned any evil; consequently they had not done any good of spiritual lineage. They were also totally ignorant of the fact that the whole of faith is truth and the whole of charity is good, and that truth without good is not truth in spirit, and good without truth is not good in spirit, so that one makes the other.

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386. To this I will append the following account:

When I once looked about in the spiritual world, I heard what sounded like the gnashing of teeth, and like a thumping, too, intermixed with a harsh noise. So I asked what I was hearing, and the angels who were with me said, "There are clubs, which we call taverns, where people argue with each other. This is the way their debates sound at a distance, but close by they sound only like arguments.

I went over and saw cottages constructed of interwoven rushes, with clay for mortar. I wanted to look through a window, but there wasn't one. I looked for a window because I was not permitted to enter through the door, as light from heaven would then flow in and befuddle the people.

Suddenly, however, a window materialized on the right side, and I heard the people complain then that everything had gone dark. But shortly a window materialized on the left side, with the window on the right side closing, and then the darkness was by degrees dispelled, and they saw each other in a state of light. After that I was allowed to enter through the door and listen.

There was a table in the middle of the room, with benches surrounding it, yet the people all seemed to me to be standing on the benches, and to be arguing sharply with each other about faith and charity, the people on one side saying that faith was the principal tenet of the church, and on the other side that charity was.

Those who made faith the principal tenet said, "Do we not deal with God as regards faith, and with people as regards charity? Is not faith therefore something heavenly, and charity something earthly? Are we not saved by what is heavenly, and not by anything earthly?

"Furthermore, cannot God confer faith from heaven, because it is something heavenly, and must not a person confer on himself charity, because it is something earthly? What a person confers on himself is unrelated to the church and is therefore not saving. Can works that are called works of charity justify anyone in that case before God?

"Believe us when we say that by faith alone we are not only justified but also sanctified, provided our faith is not contaminated by hopes for merit that spring up from works of charity."

And so on.

[2] In reply, the people who made charity the principal tenet of the church sharply refuted them, saying that charity is saving, and not faith. "Does not God hold all people dear and will good to all? How can God do this except through the agency of people? Does God enable people to speak with one another only about matters having to do with faith, and not enable them to do things for one another that are matters of charity?

"Do you not see how absurdly you spoke about charity, saying that it is something earthly? Charity is something heavenly, and because you do not do the good pertaining to charity, your faith is earthly. How do you receive faith other than as a log or rock? You say that it is simply by hearing the Word, but how can the Word do anything simply by being heard, and how can it have any effect on a log or rock? Perhaps you are animated without being aware of it. However, what is that animation except to enable you to say that faith alone is saving? Yet what that faith is, and what saving faith is, you do not know."

[3] But one among them then arose, whom an angel speaking with me called a syncretist. ¹ He took the cap from his head and placed it on the table, but quickly replaced it, as he was bald. He said, "Listen, you are all wrong. The truth is that faith is spiritual, and charity moral; but still they are conjoined, and they are conjoined by the Word, by the Holy Spirit, and by the effect these have, without the person's knowing. Indeed, the person may be said to be a compliant form, but one in which the person has no part.

"I have thought to myself a long time about this, and I eventually found that God can enable a person to receive a faith that is spiritual, but cannot move him to a charity that is spiritual without his being like a pillar of salt."

[4] When he said this, the people caught up in faith alone applauded, while those espousing charity booed. And the latter said with annoyance, "Listen, my friend, you do not know that a moral life can be spiritual, and that it can be merely natural - being a moral life that is spiritual in the case of people who do good from the Lord, though doing it as if of themselves, and being a moral life that is merely natural in the case of people who do good from hell, though doing it as if of themselves."

[5] I said before that the arguing sounded like the gnashing of teeth, and like a thumping, too, intermixed with a harsh noise. The particular arguing that sounded like the gnashing of teeth came from those who were espousing faith alone; the arguing that sounded like a thumping came from those who were espousing charity alone; and the intermixed harsh noise came from the syncretist. I heard their voices at a distance thus because they had all argued in the world, but did not refrain from any evil and so did not do any moral good that was spiritual. Moreover, they also did not know at all that the totality of faith is truth, and that the totality of charity is goodness, and that truth without goodness is not truth in spirit, and that goodness without truth is not goodness in spirit; thus that one must form the other.

The reason everything became dark when a window materialized on the right side is that light flowing in from heaven on that side affects the will. And a state of light returned when the window on the right side closed and a window materialized on the left side, because light flowing in from heaven on the left side affects the intellect, and everyone can be in the light of heaven as regards his intellect, provided his will is closed as regards the evil in him.

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