5541. 'And Reuben said to his father' means matters of faith in the understanding were discerned by the good of truth. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as discerning, often dealt with already; from the representation of 'Reuben' as faith in doctrine and in the understanding, dealt with in 3861, 3866, 5472, and therefore matters belonging to that faith; and from the representation of Jacob, 'his father' whom Reuben addresses here, as the good of truth, dealt with in 3659, 3669, 3677, 3775, 4234, 4273, 4538, 5533. From all this it is evident that 'Reuben said to his father' means matters of faith present in the understanding were discerned by the good of truth. The reason Reuben is the speaker here is that the subject is the Church in which faith present in doctrine and in the understanding seemingly takes the lead and teaches. Here it teaches what must be done if the destruction of what constitutes the Church is to be averted.

5533. 'They and their father' means by the truths and the good of truth in the natural. This is clear from the representation of the sons of Jacob, to whom 'they' refers here, as the truths in the natural, dealt with in 5403, 5419, 5427, 5458, 5512; and from the representation of Jacob, to whom 'their father' refers here, as the good of truth which is also in the natural, dealt with in 3659, 3669, 3677, 3775, 4234, 4273, 4538. An explanation of what a discernment by truths and the good of truth in the natural is can indeed be given; but when that explanation passes into the understanding the matter will seem to be extremely obscure. Yet it will be seen in so to speak the clear light of day by spirits when it passes into their understanding. Such matters are for them some of the less hard to understand. This also makes clear to some extent the nature of the difference between a person's intelligence while he is in the world and the inferior light shining here and when he is in heaven and the superior light shining there.