5150. 'And Joseph answered and said' means revelation resulting from perception received by the celestial within the natural. This is clear from the meaning of 'answering and saying' as revelation resulting from perception, dealt with above in 5121; and from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial within the natural, dealt with in 5086, 5087, 5106. The reason 'Joseph' here means the celestial within the natural is that the natural is the subject. With regard to the celestial and the spiritual, the celestial itself and the spiritual itself which flow into heaven from the Lord's Divine reside principally in the interior rational, for the forms there are more perfect ones and apt receivers. Even so, the celestial and the spiritual also flow from the Lord's Divine into the exterior rational, and into the natural too, doing so both indirectly and directly. They flow indirectly by way of the interior rational, and directly from the Lord's Divine itself. What flows in directly is that which brings order, and what flows in indirectly is that to which order is brought. This is what happens in the exterior rational, as also in the natural. From this one may recognize what the celestial within the natural is.

[2] The celestial has its origin in Divine Good and the spiritual in Divine Truth - both having their origin in the Lord. When they exist in the rational they are called the celestial and spiritual within the rational, and when they exist in the natural they are called the celestial and spiritual within the natural. The rational and natural are used to mean the person himself insofar as he has been formed to receive the celestial and spiritual; but the rational is used to mean his internal and the natural his external. By reason of what flows into him, and depending on his reception of it, a person is called a celestial man or else a spiritual man - a celestial man if the Lord's Divine Good is received in the will part of his mind, a spiritual man if it is received in the understanding part.

3219. When angels are engaged in discussion about thoughts and ideas, and about influx, birds are seen at the same time in the world of spirits - the forms which the birds take being determined by the subject under discussion. This explains why birds in the Word mean rational concepts or things comprising thought, 40, 745, 776, 991. On one occasion birds came into view, and I saw that one was dark and ugly, two fine and beautiful. When I saw them, behold! certain spirits were there who then descended on me so violently as to send a tremor into my sinews and bones. I supposed that then, as had happened several times before, evil spirits were assailing me in an attempt to destroy me; but that was not so. When the tremor ceased and the spirits who had descended on me stopped moving, I spoke to them asking what it was all about. They said that they had fallen from a certain angelic community in which discussion was taking place about thoughts and influx, and that they had been of the opinion that the things which comprise thought flow in from without, that is to say, by way of the external senses, as is the appearance. But the angelic community in which they were present were of the opinion that it flowed from within. And because they themselves had been governed by falsity they had fallen from there. No one had cast them down, for angels do not cast anyone down from among themselves. It was owing to the falsity reigning in them that they had fallen from there. This had been the reason why it had happened. From this I was given to know that discussion in heaven about thoughts and influx is represented by birds - the discussion of those in whom falsity reigns by dark and ugly birds, but that of those who are governed by truth by fine and beautiful birds. I was at the same time told that all the ideas comprising thought enter into it from within, not from without, even though those ideas seem to do so. I was also told that it is contrary to order for what is posterior to flow into what is prior, or what is grosser into what is purer, and so for body to flow into soul.