4690. 'And his brothers said to him' means the adherents to faith separated from charity. This is clear from the representation of 'Joseph's brothers' as the Church which turns aside from charity to faith and at length separates faith from charity, dealt with in 4665, 4671, 4679. The more internal members of that Church however were meant by the sheaves seen in the dream, 4686, 4688. The reason 'Joseph's brothers' represent that Church is that in the proximate sense they mean that which was a representative of the Church, that is, the semblance of religion established among the descendants of Jacob. They did not, it is true, know anything of faith such as the Christian Church knows of, but they knew of truth. Truth for them consisted in the same things as faith does for Christians. What is more, the same word is used in the original language for both faith and truth. But by truth the Jewish Church meant the Ten Commandments, and also the laws, judgements, testimonies, and statutes which were handed down to it through Moses. Interior aspects of truth they neither knew nor wished to know.

[2] The Christian Church however applies the term faith to matters of doctrine which constitute the more internal features of the Church and are called matters of belief. For by faith the ordinary people understand nothing other than that contained in the Creeds or that taught by books expounding the Creeds. But those who think that matters of doctrine concerning faith or knowledge of these cannot save anyone, and that few lead the life of faith, call faith confidence. But these are above the ordinary people and are more learned than others. From these considerations one may see that the subject at this point in the internal sense is not only that representative of the Church which had been established among the descendants of Jacob but also the Christian Church that followed it. For the Lord's Word is all-embracing and in general includes every Church. Indeed the Lord foresaw what the Christian Church would be like no less than what the Jewish Church would be like, though more immediately or proximately in the case of the Jewish. This is why this sense is called the proximate or internal historical sense, and the other the internal sense.

4138. 'With drums and with harps' means as regards spiritual good, that is to say, the state in which - thinking from the proprium - it had believed itself to be as regards that good. This is clear from the fact that 'drums and harps' has reference to good - spiritual good - as may be recognized from many places in the Word. Spiritual good is that which is called the good of faith, and is charity, whereas celestial good is that which is called the good of love, and is love to the Lord. The Lord has two kingdoms in the heavens, the first being called His celestial kingdom and consisting of those who are governed by love to the Lord, and the second being referred to as the spiritual kingdom and consisting of those who are governed by charity towards the neighbour. These kingdoms are quite distinct and separate, and yet in the heavens they act as one. Regarding these distinct and separate kingdoms - the celestial and the spiritual - see what has been stated many times already.

[2] In the Churches of long ago various kinds of musical instruments were used, such as drums, lyres, flutes, harps, instruments of ten strings, and many others. Some of these belonged to the group connected with celestial things, and some to the group connected with spiritual. When these instruments are mentioned in the Word they imply such celestial or spiritual things, so that from the instrument mentioned one can know which kind of good forms the subject - whether spiritual good or celestial good. Drums and harps belonged to the group connected with spiritual things, and that is why the phrase 'as regards spiritual good' is being used in this paragraph. For 'a harp' is used in reference to spiritual things, and stringed instruments serve to mean spiritual things, but wind instruments celestial ones, see 418-420.