569. Loose the four angels bound at the great river Euphrates, signifies the reasonings from fallacies pertaining to the sensual man, not before accepted. This is evident from the signification of "the angels at the river Euphrates," as being reasonings from the fallacies pertaining to the sensual man (of which presently); and because reasonings from such fallacies were not before accepted in the church these angels are said to be "bound" at that river, and they are said to be "four" because of the conjunction of falsity with evil, for this number signifies in the Word the conjunction of good and truth, and in the contrary sense, as here, the conjunction of evil and falsity (See above, n. 283, 384, 532). What precedes treats of the sensual man who is in the falsities of evil, and of the effect of the persuasions in which the sensual man is; therefore what now follows treats of the reasonings from the sensual. And because the sensual reasons only from such things as stand forth before the senses in the world, whenever it reasons respecting spiritual things, that is, the things of heaven and of the church, it reasons from fallacies, which are called the fallacies of the senses; therefore it is said here reasonings from the fallacies pertaining to the sensual man. But respecting these fallacies and reasoning from them more will be said in what follows.

[2] Here the state of the church at its very end is treated of, which is the state when the men of the church, having become sensual, reason from the fallacies of the senses; and when they reason from these respecting the things of heaven and the church they believe nothing at all because they understand nothing. It is known in the church that the natural man does not perceive the things of heaven unless the Lord flows in and enlightens, which influx is through the spiritual man; much less does the sensual man perceive these, for the sensual is the ultimate natural, to which the things of heaven, which are called spiritual things, are altogether in thick darkness. Genuine reasonings respecting spiritual things spring from the influx of heaven into the spiritual man, and thence through the rational into the knowledges and cognitions which are in the natural man, by means of which the spiritual man confirms himself. This way of reasoning respecting spiritual things is according to order. But reasonings about spiritual things that come from the natural man, and still more those that come from the sensual man, are entirely contrary to order; for the natural man cannot flow into the spiritual man and see anything there from itself, still less can the sensual man, since there is no physical influx; but the spiritual man can flow into the natural and from that into the sensual, since there is spiritual influx. (But on this see further in The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem 51, 277, 278.)

[3] From this what is meant by the things that now follow can be seen, namely, that at the very end of the church man speaks and reasons respecting spiritual things, or the things of heaven and the church, from the corporeal-sensual and thus from the fallacies of the senses; although therefore man then speaks in favor of Divine things he does not think in favor of them; for a man is able to speak in one way from the body while thinking in another way in his spirit; and while the spirit which thinks from the corporeal-sensual is unable to think in any other way than against Divine things, nevertheless from the corporeal-sensual it is able to speak in favor of them, and this especially for the reason that Divine things are to him the means of acquiring honor and gain. Every man has two memories, a natural memory and a spiritual memory, and he is able to think from either, from the natural memory when he is speaking with men in the world, but from the spiritual memory when he is speaking from the spirit; but man rarely speaks from the spirit with another, from the spirit he speaks only with himself, which is thinking. They who are sensual men are unable to speak with themselves from their spirit, or to think, in any other way than in favor of nature, consequently in favor of things corporeal and worldly, for the sensual man thinks from the sensual, and not from the spiritual; indeed, he is wholly ignorant of what the spiritual is, because he has closed the spiritual mind in himself, into which heaven flows with its light.

[4] But let us go on to explain these words, that "a voice was heard from the horns of the golden altar, saying to the sixth angel that he should loose the four angels bound at the river Euphrates." "The river Euphrates" signifies the rational, and thence also reasoning; this is the signification of this river because it divided Assyria from the land of Canaan, and "Assyria" or "Asshur" signifies the rational, and "the land of Canaan" the spiritual. There were three rivers, besides the sea, that were boundaries of the land of Canaan, namely, the river of Egypt, the river Euphrates, and the river Jordan. "The river of Egypt" signified the knowledge [scientia] of the natural man; "the river Euphrates" signified the rational which is in man from knowledges and cognitions; and "the river Jordan" signifies entrance into the internal or spiritual church; for "the regions beyond Jordan," where the tribes of Reuben and Gad and the half tribe of Manasseh had their inheritances allotted them, signified the external or natural church, and because that river was between those regions and the land of Canaan, and through it was the passage from one to the other, it signified entrance from the external church, which is natural, into the internal church which is spiritual. It was for this reason that baptism was there instituted, for baptism represented the regeneration of man, whereby the natural man is introduced into the church and becomes spiritual.

[5] This explains what these three rivers signify in the Word. All those places also outside of the land of Canaan signified such things as belong to the natural man, while those within the land of Canaan signified such things as belong to the spiritual man, thus the things of heaven and the church. Therefore the two rivers, "the river of Egypt" (or the Nile), and "the river of Assyria" (or the Euphrates), signified the terminations of the church, and also the introductions into the church. Moreover, cognitions and knowledges which are signified by "the river of Egypt," are what introduce, for without cognitions and knowledges no one can be introduced into the church nor perceive the things that belong to the church; for the spiritual man sees its spiritual things in knowledges [scientiae] by means of the rational, as man sees himself in a mirror, and recognizes himself in them, that is, its truths and goods, and moreover confirms its spiritual things by means of cognitions and knowledges, both those known from the Word and those known from the world.

[6] But "the river of Assyria" (or the Euphrates) signifies the rational, because man by the rational is introduced into the church. By the rational is meant the thought of the natural man from cognitions and knowledges, for a man who is imbued with knowledges [scientiae] is able to see things in series, that is, from first and mediate things to see the last, which is called the conclusion, and can therefore analytically arrange, turn over, separate, conjoin, and at length conclude things, even to a further end, and at length to the final end; which is the use that he loves. This, then, is the rational which is given to every man according to uses, which are the ends that he loves. Since everyone's rational comes into accord with the uses of his love, therefore it is the interior thought of the natural man from the influx of the light of heaven; and as man through rational thought is introduced into spiritual thought and becomes a church, so that river signifies the natural ¹ which introduces.

[7] It is one thing to be rational, and another to be spiritual; every spiritual man is also rational, but the rational man is not always spiritual, since the rational is in the natural man, that is, is its thought, while the spiritual is above the rational, and through the rational passes into the natural, into the cognitions and knowledges of its memory.

[8] But it is to be known that the rational does not introduce anyone into the spiritual, but it is only said to do so because such is the appearance; for the spiritual flows into the natural through the rational as a medium, and in this way it introduces. For the spiritual is the inflowing Divine, since it is the light of heaven, which is the Divine truth proceeding, and this light through the higher mind, which is called the spiritual mind, flows into the lower mind, which is called the natural mind, and conjoins this to itself, and through that conjunction causes the natural mind to make one with the spiritual; thus introduction is effected. Since it is contrary to Divine order for man to enter through his rational into the spiritual, therefore in the spiritual world there are angel guards to prevent this from taking place. This makes evident the signification of "the four angels bound at the river Euphrates," and afterwards the signification of "loosing" them. "The angels bound at the river Euphrates" signify the guard against man's natural entering into the spiritual things of heaven and the church, for thence would result nothing but errors and heresies, and at length denial.

[9] Moreover, in the spiritual world there are ways that lead to hell and ways that lead to heaven; also ways that lead from spiritual things to natural and thus to sensual things; and in those ways there are also guards lest anyone should go in the opposite direction, for thus he would fall into heresies and errors, as has just been said. These guards are set by the Lord at the beginning of the establishment of a church, and are also maintained, lest the man of the church from his own reason or his own understanding should invade the Divine things of the Word and thence of the church. But at the end, when the men of the church are no longer spiritual but are natural, and many are merely sensual, and thus there is no way open with the man of the church from the spiritual man into the natural, then these guards are removed and the ways are opened, and in these opened ways they advance in a contrary order, which is done by reasonings from fallacies. Thus ² it is that the man of the church speaks in favor of Divine things with the mouth, while in heart he thinks against them, that is, he is in favor of Divine things from the body and against them from the spirit; for reasoning respecting Divine things from the natural and sensual man has this effect. From this then the signification of "the four angels bound at the river Euphrates," and their being "loosed" can now be seen.

[10] That "the river Euphrates" signifies the rational, through which there is a way from the spiritual man into the natural, can be seen from the following passages in the Word. In Moses:

Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I will give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river, the river Euphrates (Genesis 15:18).

In the sense of the letter this describes the extension of the land of Canaan, but in the internal sense it describes the extension of the church from its first boundary to its last; its first boundary is the knowing faculty [scientificum] which is of the natural man, the other boundary is the rational which is of the thought; the first, namely, the knowing faculty, which is of the natural man, is signified by "the river of Egypt," the Nile; while the rational, which is of the thought, is signified by "the river of Assyria," the Euphrates; to these two the spiritual church, which is signified by "the land of Canaan," extends itself, so too does the spiritual mind which is with the man of the church. Both these, the knowing faculty and the rational, are in the natural man, the one limit of which is the knowing and cognitive faculty, and the other is the intuitive and thinking faculty, and into these limits the spiritual man flows when it flows into the natural man; the conjunction of the Lord with the church by means of these is signified by the "covenant" that Jehovah made with Abram. Such is the signification of these words in the internal sense, while in the highest sense, they mean the union of the Divine Essence with the Lord's Human; according to this sense these words are explained in the Arcana Coelestia 1863-1866).

[11] In Zechariah:

His dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth (Zechariah 9:10; also in Psalms 72:8).

This was said of the Lord and of His dominion over heaven and earth; and the "dominion from sea even to sea" signifies the extension of natural things, and "the dominion from the river even to the ends of the earth" signifies the extension of rational and spiritual things (See also above, n. 518).

[12] In Moses:

The land of the Canaanites and Lebanon, even to the great river, the river Euphrates, behold I have given the land before you; go in and possess it by inheritance (Deuteronomy 1:7, 8).

In the same:

Every place whereon the sole of your foot shall tread shall be yours from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates even unto the hinder sea shall your border be (Deuteronomy 11:24).

And in Joshua:

From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even to the great river, the river Euphrates, the whole land of the Hittites, and even to the great sea, the going down of the sun, shall be your border (Joshua 1:4).

In these passages the extension of the church from one limit to the other is described; one of its limits, which is the cognitive and knowing faculty, is signified by "Lebanon" and "the sea;" and the other limit, which is the intuitive and thinking faculty, is signified by "the river Euphrates;" the extension of the land of Canaan means the extension of the church, for in the Word "the land of Canaan" signifies the church. "River" is twice mentioned, namely, "the great river, the river Euphrates," because "the great river" signifies the influx of spiritual things into rational, and "the river Euphrates" the influx of rational things into natural, thus the two signify the influx of spiritual things through the rational into natural things.

[13] In Micah:

This is the day in which they shall even come to thee from Assyria, and to the cities of Egypt, and thence from Egypt even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain (Micah 7:12).

This describes the establishment of the church by the Lord among the Gentiles, "this day" signifying the Lord's coming; the extension of the church among them from one limit to the other is signified by "they shall come from Assyria to the cities of Egypt and from Egypt to the river;" the extension of truth from one limit to the other is signified by "from sea to sea," and the extension of good by "from mountain to mountain. "

[14] In David:

Thou hast caused a vine to go forth out of Egypt; Thou didst drive out the nations and didst plant it. Thou hast sent out its boughs even unto the sea, and its shoots unto the river (Psalms 80:8, 11).

The "vine that God caused to go forth out of Egypt" means the sons of Israel, and signifies the church, for a "vine" signifies the spiritual church, and this was signified also by "the sons of Israel;" and because the church is called a "vine," it is said, "Thou didst plant it, Thou hast sent out its boughs even unto the sea, and its shoots unto the river," which describes the extension of the spiritual things of the church, the "sea" meaning one of its limits, and the "river," by which is meant the Euphrates, the other. The Euphrates:

As the fourth river that went out of Eden (Genesis 2:14);

also signifies the rational, for "the garden of Eden" (or Paradise) signifies wisdom. The signification of the other three rivers may be seen in the Arcana Coelestia 107-121).

[15] As "the river Euphrates" signifies the rational, so in the contrary sense it signifies reasoning; reasoning here means thinking and arguing from fallacies and falsities, while the rational means thinking and arguing from knowledges (scientiae) and from truths; for the rational is cultivated always by knowledges, and is formed by truths, therefore one who is led by truths or whom truths lead, is called a rational man; but a man who is not rational has the ability to reason, for by various reasonings he is able to confirm falsities, and also to induce the simple to believe them, which is done mainly by means of the fallacies of the senses (of which below).

[16] Such reasoning is signified by "the river Euphrates" in the following passages. In Jeremiah:

What hast thou to do with the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? And what hast thou to do with the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river? (Jeremiah 2:18)

This signifies that spiritual things must not be searched into by means of the knowledges [scientifica] of the natural man, nor by means of reasonings therefrom, but by the means of the Word, thus out of heaven from the Lord; for those who are in spiritual affection, and in spiritual thought therefrom, see the knowledges [scientifica] of the natural man and reasonings therefrom as below them, but from these no one can see spiritual things; from above one can look down on lower things on every side, but not the reverse. To search into spiritual things by means of the knowledges of the natural man is signified by "What hast thou to do with the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor?" and by means of reasonings therefrom is signified by "what hast thou to do with the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?" "Egypt and its river" signify the knowledges of the natural man, and "Assyria and its river" signify the reasonings from them.

[17] In Isaiah:

In that day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired in the crossings of the river, by means of the King of Assyria, the head and the hairs of the feet, and shall also consume the beard (Isaiah 7:20).

This treats of the state of the church at its end, when the Lord is about to come; that reasonings from falsities will then deprive the men of the church of all spiritual wisdom and intelligence is described by these words. The reasonings by which this is done are signified by "the king of Assyria, in the crossings of the river," namely, the Euphrates. The deprivation of spiritual wisdom and of spiritual intelligence therefrom is signified by "the hairs of the head and of the feet shall be shaven with a razor that is hired, and the beard shall be consumed;" for "hairs" signify natural things upon which spiritual things operate and into which they close; therefore "hairs" signify in the Word the ultimates of wisdom and intelligence, "the hair of the head" signifying the ultimates of wisdom, the "beard" the ultimates of intelligence, and "the hair of the feet" the ultimates of knowledge [scientia]. When these ultimates are not, there are no prior things, as when there is no base for the column, nor foundation for the house. Those who have deprived themselves of intelligence by means of reasonings from fallacies and from falsities appear bald in the spiritual world (See above, n. 66).

[18] In the same:

Behold the Lord hath made to go up upon them the waters of the river strong and many, the king of Assyria and all his glory; and he shall go up over all his channels, and shall go over all his banks; he shall go through Judah, he shall overflow and pass over (Isaiah 8:7, 8).

These words signify that each and every thing of the Word is to be falsified in the church by means of reasonings from fallacies and falsities; "the waters of the river strong and many, the king of Assyria," signifies reasonings from mere fallacies and falsities; "he shall go up over all his channels and over all his banks" signifies that by these each and every thing of the Word will be falsified; "Judah, which he will overflow and pass over," signifies the church where the Word is, and thus the Word.

[19] In Jeremiah:

Against the army of Pharaoh king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates which Nebuchadnezzar smote. Towards the north by the bank of the river Euphrates they stumbled and fell (Jeremiah 46:2, 6, 10).

This signifies the destruction of the church, and of its truths by false reasonings from knowledges [scientifica]; "the river Euphrates" signifies false reasonings; "Egypt and its army" confirming knowledges [scientifica]; "the north where they stumbled and fell," signifies the source of these falsities. (On this see above, n. 518.)

[20] In the same:

Jehovah told the prophet to buy a linen girdle, and to put it upon the loins, but not to draw it through water; and then to go to the Euphrates, and hide the girdle there in a hole of the rock. And he went and hid it by the Euphrates. Afterwards, at the end of many days, Jehovah said, Arise, go to the Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence. And he went and took it, and behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing. Thus as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I made to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, that they might be unto Me for a name, and for a praise, and for a splendor; but they would not hearken (Jeremiah 13:1-7, 11).

This represented of what quality the Israelitish and Jewish Church was and what it became; the "linen girdle which the prophet put upon his loins" signifies the conjunction of the church with the Lord by means of the Word; for the "prophet" signifies doctrine from the Word, and the "girdle upon the prophet's loins" signifies conjunction. Falsifications of the Word by evils of life and falsities of doctrine, and thence reasonings that favor these, are signified by "the girdle was marred in the hole of the rock by the Euphrates." For by means of the Word there is conjunction of the Lord with the church, and when the Word is perverted by reasonings that favor evils and falsities there is no longer any conjunction, and this also is what is meant by "the girdle was profitable for nothing." That this was done by the Jews is evident from the Word both of the Old and New Testaments. From the Word of the New Testament it is evident that they perverted all things written in the Word respecting the Lord, and all the essentials of the church, and that they falsified these by their traditions.

[21] In the same:

When thou hast made an end of reading this book thou shalt bind a stone to it and cast it into the midst of the Euphrates; and thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise again (Jeremiah 51:63, 64).

The prophet's "book" which he read, means in particular the Word that was in that book, but in general the whole Word; "he cast it into the midst of the Euphrates" signifies that in process of time the Word was falsified through reasonings that favor evils by those who are meant by "Babylon," who are such as adulterate the Word.

[22] In Isaiah:

And Jehovah shall make utterly accursed the tongue of the sea of Egypt; and with the vehemence of His wind shall He shake His hand over the river Euphrates, and shall smite it into seven brooks, to make a way with shoes. Then there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people which shall be left from Assyria; like as there was to Israel when he came up out of the land of Egypt (Isaiah 11:15, 16).

This signifies that before those who are in truths from good from the Lord, that is, who are of the church, all falsities and reasonings from them shall be dispersed, and that they shall pass safely as it were through the midst of them; this is so in the spiritual world with those whom the Lord protects. This has a similar meaning as "the drying up of the Sea Suph before the sons of Israel." Those who will pass through under the Lord's protection are signified by "the remnant of the people which shall be left from Assyria," "those left from Assyria" signifying those who have not perished by reasonings from falsities. The following in Revelation has a similar signification:

And the sixth angel poured out of his bowl upon the river Euphrates, and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings who are from the rising of the sun might be made ready (Revelation 16:12).

This will be more fully explained below in its place.

[23] From this it can now be seen that "the river Euphrates" signifies the rational by means of which the spiritual mind enters into the natural, and that in the contrary sense it signifies reasoning from fallacies and from falsities. But it is to be known that reasonings are in a like degree as the thoughts are, since they descend from the thoughts; thus there are reasonings from the spiritual man which might better be called conclusions from reasons and from truths; there are reasonings from the natural man, and there are reasonings from the sensual man. Reasonings from the spiritual man are rational, and therefore might better be called conclusions from reasons and from truths, because they are from the interior and from the light of heaven; but reasonings from the natural man respecting spiritual things are not rational, however rational they may be in things moral and civil, which are evident before the eyes, because they are from natural light alone; but reasonings from the sensual man respecting spiritual things are irrational, because they are from fallacies and thus from ideas that are false; these are the reasonings here treated of in Revelation.

Poznámky pod čarou:

35. I shall here add the following account of an experience. ¹

Once I was amazed at the huge number of people who regard nature as the source of creation, and therefore of everything beneath or above the sun. When they see anything they say, and they give it heartfelt acknowledgment, 'Surely this is due to nature'; and when they are asked why, they say that this is due to nature rather than to God, when they still sometimes follow the usual view that God created nature, so that they could just as well say that what they see is due to God rather than to nature, they reply muttering almost inaudibly to themselves, 'What is God but nature?' This false belief that nature created the universe, a piece of madness they take for wisdom, makes them so puffed up that they look on all who acknowledge that God created the universe as ants, creeping along the ground, treading a worn path; and some as butterflies flying around in the air. They call their dogmas dreams, because they see things the others cannot, and they say: 'Who has ever seen God? We can all see nature.'

[2] While I was wondering at the immense number of such people, an angel came and stood beside me, saying 'What are you thinking about?'

I replied, 'How many people there are who believe that nature produces itself and is therefore the creator of the universe.'

'The whole of hell,' the angel told me, 'is composed of such people; there they are called satans and devils. Those who have formed a firm belief in nature and consequently denied the existence of God are satans; those who have spent their lives in crimes and thus banished from their hearts any acknowledgment of God are devils. But I will take you to the schools in the south-western quarter where such people who are not yet in hell live.'

So he took me by the hand and guided me. I saw some cottages containing schools and one building in their midst which seemed to be their headquarters. It was built of pitch-black stones coated with glassy plates giving the appearance of glittering gold and silver, rather like the stones called selenites or mica. Here and there were interspersed shining shells.

[3] We went up to this building and knocked. Someone quickly opened the door and made us welcome. He hurried to a table and brought us four books, saying: 'These books contain the wisdom which the majority of kingdoms approve to-day. This book contains the wisdom favoured by many in France, this by many in Germany, this by some in Holland, and this by some in Britain.' He went on: 'If you like to watch, I will make these four books shine before your eyes.' Then he poured forth and enveloped the books in the glory of his own reputation, so that at once the books shone as it were with light. But this light immediately vanished from our sight.

We asked him then what he was now writing. He replied that at present he was bringing out of his stores and displaying the very kernel of wisdom. This could by summarised as: (1) Whether nature is due to life, or life to nature; (2) whether a centre is due to an expanse, or an expanse to a centre; (3) about the centre and expanse of nature and life.

[4] So saying he sat down again at the table, while we strolled around his spacious school. He had a candle on the table, because there was no sunlight there, but only moonlight. What surprised me was that the candle seemed to roam about and cast its light; but because the wick was not trimmed it gave little light. While he was writing, we saw images of different shapes flying up from the table on to the walls. In that night-time moonlight they looked like beautiful birds from India. But as soon as we opened the door, in the sunlight of daytime they looked like nocturnal birds with net-like wings. They were apparent truths turned into fallacies by adducing proofs which he had ingeniously linked into coherent series.

[5] After seeing this we approached the table and asked him what he was now writing.

'My first proposition:' he said, 'whether nature is due to life or life to nature.' He remarked that on this point he could prove either proposition and make it appear true. But because of some lurking fear which was not explicit, he dare only prove that nature is due to life, that is to say, comes from life, and not the reverse, that life is due to, that is, comes from nature.

We asked politely what was the lurking fear he could not make explicit.

He replied that it was the fear of being called by the clergy a nature-worshipper and so an atheist, and by the laity a person of unsound mind, because both parties are either believers from blind faith or people who see that it is so by studying supporting arguments.

[6] Then our zealous indignation for the truth got the better of us and we addressed him thus: 'My friend, you are quite wrong. Your wisdom, which is no more than an ingenuity of style, has led you astray, and your desire for reputation has induced you to prove what you do not believe. Do you not know that the human mind is capable of being raised above the objects of the senses, that is to say, the thoughts engendered by the bodily senses; and when it is so raised it can see the products of life at a higher level and the products of nature below? What is life but love and wisdom? And what is nature but a receiver of love and wisdom, a means to bring about their effects or purposes? Can these be one, except as principal and instrumental? Light surely cannot be one with the eye, nor sound with the ear. What is the cause of these senses if not life, and what is the cause of their shapes if not nature? What is the human body but an organ for receiving life? Are not all its parts organically constructed to produce what love wills and the understanding thinks? Surely the body's organs spring from nature, but love and thought spring from life. Are these not quite distinct from each other? Raise the view of your mind a little higher, and you will see that emotion and thought are due to life; that emotion is due to love and thought to wisdom, and both of them are due to life, for, as has been said before, love and wisdom constitute life. If you raise your intellectual faculty a little higher still, you will see that love and wisdom could not exist unless somewhere they had a source, and that this source is Love Itself and Wisdom Itself, therefore Life Itself. These are God, who is the source of nature.'

[7] Afterwards we talked with him about his second proposition, whether the centre is due to the expanse, or the expanse to the centre. We asked his reasons for discussing this subject. He replied that it was in order to enable him to reach a conclusion about the centre and expanse of nature and life, which one was the source of the other. When we asked his opinion, he made the same reply as before, that he could prove either proposition, but for fear of losing his reputation he proved that the expanse was due to, that is to say, was the source of the centre. 'All the same,' he said, 'I know that something existed before there was a sun, and this was distributed throughout the expanse, and this of itself reduced itself to order, so creating a centre.'

[8] The zeal of our indignation made us address him again, saying: 'My friend, you are mad.' On hearing this he drew his chair back from the table and looked fearfully at us, but then listened with a smile on his face. 'What could be more crazy, 'we went on, 'than to say the centre is due to the expanse? We take your centre to mean the sun, and your expanse to be the universe; so you hold that the universe came into existence without the sun, do you? Surely the sun produces nature and all its properties, which are solely dependent upon the light and heat radiated by the sun and propagated through atmospheres? Where could these have been before there was a sun? We will explain their origin later on in the discussion. Are not the atmospheres, and everything on earth, like surfaces, the centre of which is the sun? What would become of them all without the sun? Could they last a single instant? And what of them all before there was a sun? Could they have come into existence? Is not subsistence continuous coming into existence? Since therefore the subsistence of everything in nature depends upon the sun, so must their coming into existence. Everyone can see this and acknowledge it from personal experience.

[9] Does not what is later in order subsist, just as it comes into existence, from what is earlier? If the surface were earlier and the centre later, should we not have what is earlier subsisting from what is later - something which is contrary to the laws of order? How can the later produce the earlier, or the more outward the more inward, or the grosser the purer? How then could the surfaces making up an expanse produce a centre? Anyone can see that this is contrary to the laws of nature. We have drawn these proofs from rational analysis to show that the expanse is produced by the centre, and not the reverse, although everyone who thinks correctly can see this for himself without these proofs. You said that the expanse of its own accord came together to form a centre. Did this happen by chance, that everything fell into such a wonderful and amazing order, so that one thing should be on account of the next, and every single thing on account of human beings and their everlasting life? Can nature inspired by some love and working through some wisdom have ends in view, foresee causes and so provide effects to bring such things about in due order? Can nature turn human beings into angels, build a heaven of them, and make its inhabitants live for ever? Accept these propositions and think them over; your idea of nature begetting nature will collapse.'

[10] After this we asked him what he had thought, and still did, about his third proposition, about the centre and expanse of nature and life. Did he believe that the centre and expanse of life were the same as the centre and expanse of nature?

He said that here he hesitated. He had previously believed that the inward activity of nature was life and that love and wisdom, which are the essential components of human life, come from this source. It is produced by the heat and light coming from the fire of the sun and transmitted through atmospheres. But now as the result of what he had heard about people living after death he was in doubt, a doubt which alternately lifted up and depressed his mind. When it was lifted up, he acknowledged a centre which had previously been quite unknown to him; when it was depressed he saw a centre which he thought to be the only one. Life was from the centre previously unknown to him, and nature from the centre he thought to be the only one, each centre being surrounded by an expanse.

[11] We said we approved of that, so long as he was willing to view the centre and expanse of nature from the centre and expanse of life, and not the reverse. We taught him that above the heaven of the angels there is a Sun which is pure love; it appears fiery, like the sun in the world, and the heat radiated from it is the source of will and love among angels and human beings; the light radiating from it produces their understanding and wisdom. Everything from this source is called spiritual; but the radiation from the sun of the natural world is a container or receiver of life; this is what we call natural. The expanse proper to the centre of life is called the spiritual world, and the expanse proper to the centre of nature is called the natural world, which owes its subsistence to its own sun. Now because space and time cannot be predicated of love and wisdom, but there are states instead, it follows that the expanse surrounding the sun of the heaven of angels is not a spatial extension, though it is present in the extension to which the natural sun belongs, and with the living things there, depending upon their ability to receive them, and this is determined by their forms and states.

[12] But then he asked, 'What is the origin of fire in the sun of the world, the natural sun?'

We replied that it was from the sun of the heaven of angels, which is not fire, but the Divine Love most nearly radiating from God, who is in its midst. Since he found this surprising, we gave this explanation: 'Love in its essence is spiritual fire; that is why "fire" in the spiritual sense of the Word stands for love. That is why priests in church pray that heavenly fire may fill their hearts, meaning love. The fire on the altar and the fire of the lampstand in the Tabernacle of the Israelites was nothing but a representation of Divine Love. The heat of the blood, or the vital heat of human beings, and of animals in general, comes from no other source than the love which makes up their life. That is why people become warm, grow hot and burst into flame, when their love is raised to zeal, or is aroused to anger and rage. Therefore the fact that spiritual heat, being love, produces natural heat in human beings, to such an extent as to fire and inflame their faces and bodies, can serve as a proof that the fire of the natural sun arose from no other source than the fire of the spiritual sun, which is Divine love.

[13] Now because the expanse arises from the centre, and not the reverse, as we said before, and the centre of life, which is the sun of the heaven of angels, is the Divine Love most nearly radiating from God, who is in the midst of that sun; and because this is the origin of the expanse deriving from that centre, which is called the spiritual world; and because that sun brought into being the sun of the world, and also the expanse which is called the natural world, it is plain that the universe was created by God.'

After this we went away, and he accompanied us out of the courtyard of his school, speaking with us about heaven and hell, and about Divine guidance, showing new powers of sagacity.

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