5467. Verses 21-24 And they said, a man to his brother, Assuredly we are guilty concerning our brother, whose anguish of soul we saw when he pleaded with us and we did not hear; therefore this anguish has come upon us. And Reuben answered them, saying, Did I not say to you, saying, Do not sin against the boy - and you did not listen? And also, his blood; behold, it is required. And they did not know that Joseph was hearing, because the interpreter was between them. And he turned away from them and wept; and he came back to them and spoke to them; and he took Simeon from them, and bound him before their eyes.

'And they said, a man to his brother' means a perception as to the reason why. 'Assuredly we are guilty concerning our brother' means that they were blameworthy because they had alienated the internal by their non-acceptance of good. 'Whose anguish of soul we saw' means the state of the internal in regard to good, once it was alienated. 'When he pleaded with us and we did not hear' means its constant entreaty without ever gaining acceptance. 'And Reuben answered them, saying' means that a perception nevertheless existed, springing from faith in doctrine and in the understanding. 'Did I not say to you, saying' means the degree of perception from there. 'Do not sin against the boy' means lest they become separated [the external from the internal]. 'And you did not listen' means non-acceptance. 'And also, his blood; behold, it is required' means the subsequent remorse of conscience. 'And they did not know that Joseph was hearing' means that the natural light in which those truths dwell does not engender any belief that spiritual light renders all things visible. 'Because the interpreter was between them' means that at this time spiritual things are understood in a completely different manner. 'And he turned away from them' means somewhat of a withdrawal. 'And wept' means mercy. 'And he came back to them and spoke to them' means an influx. 'And he took Simeon from them' means faith in the will. 'And bound him' means a separation. 'Before their eyes' means a discernment.

2619. 'As He had spoken' means as He had thought. This is clear from the meaning of 'speaking' as thinking, dealt with in 2271, 2287. Perception, which is meant by 'Jehovah said', flowed from the Divine celestial, but thought, which is meant by 'Jehovah spoke', flowed from the Divine celestial by way of the Divine spiritual. This explains why in the sense of the letter there occurs an apparent repetition, namely 'as He had said' and 'as He had spoken'. But what perceiving from the Divine celestial is, and what thinking from the Divine celestial by way of the Divine spiritual, does not come within the range of even the most enlightened capacity to understand by means of the things which belong to the light of the world. This shows how infinite everything else [in the Word] must be. The fact that thought stems from perception, see 1919, 2515. With man the position is that good is the source from which he perceives, but truth the means by which he thinks. Good exists in love and its affections, and for that reason is the source of perception, whereas truth exists in faith, and for that reason faith goes with thought. The former is meant in historical parts of the Word by 'saying', but the latter by 'speaking'. When only the expression 'saying' is used however, it sometimes means perceiving and sometimes thinking, because 'saying' includes both.