904. 21:15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. This symbolically means that to people who possess the goodness of love, the Lord grants a faculty for understanding and knowing the nature of the Lord's New Church as regards its doctrine and its introductory truths, and as regards the Word from which they are drawn.

He who spoke with me symbolizes the Lord speaking from heaven, because it was an angel speaking, one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls mentioned in verse 9, who means the Lord speaking from heaven (no. 895). A reed symbolizes a power or ability springing from the goodness of love - a reed symbolizing power or ability (no. 485), and gold the goodness of love (nos. 211, 726). To measure means, symbolically, to learn the character of a thing, thus to understand and know it (no. 486). The city, the holy Jerusalem, symbolizes the church in respect to its doctrine (nos. 879, 880). Its gates symbolize concepts of truth and goodness from the Word's literal sense, which are truths and goods owing to the spiritual life in them (no. 899). And the wall symbolizes the Word in its literal sense from which the doctrine and concepts come (no. 898).

It is apparent from this that "he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall," symbolically means that to people who possess the goodness of love, the Lord grants a faculty for understanding and knowing the nature of the Lord's New Church as regards its doctrine and its introductory truths, and as regards the Word from which they are drawn.

[2] These symbolic meanings cannot be seen at all in the literal sense, for one sees in it only that an angel speaking with John had a gold reed with which to measure the city and its gates and wall. But even so, that these words contain another meaning, a spiritual meaning, is clearly apparent from the fact that the city Jerusalem does not mean a real city, but the church. Consequently everything said about Jerusalem as a city symbolizes such things as have to do with the church, and everything having to do with the church is, in itself, spiritual.

Such a spiritual meaning is present also in what is said in chapter 11 above, where we are told the following:

I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood by, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there." (Revelation 11:1)

A similar spiritual meaning is present, too, in everything that the angel measured with a reed in Ezekiel 40; 41; 42; 43; 44; 45; 46; 47; 48. Also in these verses in Zechariah:

I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, a man with a measuring line in his hand. So I said, "Where are you going?" And he said to me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see what its width is and what its length." (Zechariah 2:1-2)

Indeed, such a spiritual meaning is present in everything connected with the Tabernacle and in everything connected with the Temple in Jerusalem, whose measurements we are told, and also in the measurements themselves. And yet nothing of this can be seen in the literal sense.

486. And the angel stood by, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there." This symbolizes the Lord's presence and His command to see and learn the state of the church in the New Heaven.

The Lord is meant by the angel, here as in nos. 5, 415, and elsewhere, since an angel does nothing of himself but is impelled by the Lord. That is why the angel said, "I will give power to my two witnesses" (verse 3), when they were the Lord's witnesses. The angel's standing by symbolizes the Lord's presence, and his speaking symbolizes the Lord's command. To rise and measure means, symbolically, to see and learn. We will see below that to measure means, symbolically, to learn and investigate the character of a state.

The temple, altar, and those who worship there symbolize the state of the church in the New Heaven - the temple symbolizing the church in respect to its doctrinal truth (no. 191), the altar symbolizing the church in respect to the goodness of its love (no. 392), and those who worship there symbolizing the church in respect to its formal worship as a result of those two elements. Those who worship symbolize here the reverence that is a part of formal worship, since the spiritual sense is a sense abstracted from persons (nos. 78, 79, 96), as is apparent here also from the fact that John is told to measure the worshipers. These three elements are what form the church: doctrinal truth, goodness of love, and formal worship as a result of these.

[2] That the church meant is the church in the New Heaven is apparent from the last verse of this chapter, where we are told that "the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple" (verse 19).

This chapter begins with the measuring of the temple in order that the state of the church in heaven might be seen and learned before its conjunction with the church in the world. The church in the world is meant by the court outside the temple, which John was not to measure, because it had been given to the gentiles (verse 2). The same church is then described by the great city called Sodom and Egypt (verses 7, 8). But after that great city fell (verse 13), it follows that the church became the Lord's (verses 15ff.).

It should be known that the church exists in the heavens just as on earth, and that the two are united like the inner and outer selves in people. Consequently the Lord provides the church in heaven first, and from it, or by means of it, then the church on earth. That is why the New Jerusalem is said to come down from God out of the New Heaven (Revelation 21:1-2).

The New Heaven means a new heaven formed from Christians, as described several times in the following chapters.

[3] To measure means, symbolically, to learn and investigate the character of a thing because the measure of something symbolizes its character or state. All the measurements of the New Jerusalem (chapter 21) have this symbolic meaning, as does the statement there that the angel who had the gold reed measured the city and its gates, and that he measured the wall to be one hundred and forty-four cubits, the measure of a man which is that of an angel (verses 15, 17). Moreover, because the New Jerusalem symbolizes the New Church, is it apparent that to measure it and its component parts means, symbolically, to learn its character.

Measuring has the same symbolic meaning in Ezekiel, where we read that an angel measured the house of God: the temple, the altar, the court, and the chambers (Ezekiel 40:3-17; 41:1-5, 13-14, 22; 42:1-20, and 43:1-27). Also that he measured the waters (47:3-5, 9). Therefore the prophet is told:

...show the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the pattern... and... its exits and its entrances, and all its patterns..., so that they may keep its whole design... (Ezekiel 43:10-11)

Measuring has the same symbolic meaning in the following places:

I raised my eyes..., and behold, a man with a measuring line in his hand. So I said, "Where are you going?" And he said to me, "To measure Jerusalem...." (Zechariah 2:1-2)

He stood and measured the earth. (Habakkuk 3:6)

(The Lord Jehovih) has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, and gauged heaven with a span... and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance. (Isaiah 40:12)

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? ...Who determined its measurements? ...Or who stretched the line upon it? (Job 38:4-5)