5434. 'And they said to him, No, sir, we are upright men' means that truths are indeed present within them. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying to him, No, sir' as a denial that they existed for the sake of gain, meant by Joseph's words 'you are spies', 5432, and a denial that nothing would please them more than to know it for themselves that they are not truths, meant by Joseph's words 'you have come to see the nakedness of the land', 5433; and from the meaning of 'we are upright men' as that truths are indeed present within them, 'uprightness' meaning truth in the internal sense here, as also many times elsewhere in the Word. This meaning - that truths are indeed present within them - follows from the whole train of thought; for in the case of people who have acquired to themselves the truths known to the Church, doing so for the sake of their own material gain, those truths are not indeed truths to them, as shown above in 5433. But even so, truths can indeed be present within them, such truths known to the Church as a general whole being meant by 'the sons of Jacob'. The reason 'upright men' means truths quite apart from persons is that in the internal sense everything is withdrawn from ideas about persons; an idea in the literal sense describing a person becomes an idea describing some spiritual reality, see 5225, 5287. The reason for this is that otherwise the reader's thought and consequent speech are inevitably distracted and diverted from that spiritual reality and contemplation of it to details that have to do with the person. What is more, there is no other way in which the thought and consequent speech can become more universal, no other way in which just a number of ideas, let alone ideas that are countless and indescribable, can be taken in simultaneously, as is the case among angels. But although such spiritual images are withdrawn from ideas of persons they still have to do with persons; that is to say, they have to do with people in whom those spiritual realities are present. This is why 'upright men' means truths.

5472. 'And Reuben answered them, saying' means that a perception nevertheless existed, springing from faith in doctrine and in the understanding. This is clear from the meaning of 'answering' or 'saying to his brothers' as perception, for 'saying' is perception, see above in 5468; and from the representation of 'Reuben' as faith in doctrine and in the understanding, which is the truth of doctrine by means of which one can arrive at the good of life, dealt with in 3861, 3866. Since the subject here is the entreaty made by good, or the Divine within good, to be accepted, reference is made to faith - to the kinds of things taught by this regarding the acceptance of good. For if a person departing from good feels at all disturbed, this is not due to an inner voice speaking to him but to the faith acquired by him since early childhood. This is what speaks to him at such times and gives rise to the disturbance felt by him. This explains why Reuben, who represents that faith, is the speaker here. The expression faith in doctrine and in the understanding is used to distinguish that faith from faith in life and in the will, which 'Simeon' represents.