5121. 'And Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perception, dealt with in 1791, 1815, 1819, 1822, 1898, 1919, 2080, 2619, 2862, 3509, 3395, in this case as revelation resulting from perception, since the subject is a dream and its interpretation, and all revelation is either the result of talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks or else the result of perception, dealt with below; from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial within the natural, dealt with above in 5086, 5087, 5106; and from the meaning of 'the interpretation' as what it held within it, also dealt with above, in 5093, 5105, 5107. From this it is evident that 'Joseph said to him, This is the interpretation of it' means revelation resulting from the perception received by the celestial within the natural as to what it held within it.

[2] With regard to revelations resulting either from perception or from talking to angels through whom the Lord speaks, it should be recognized that people who are governed by good and from this by truth, especially those who are governed by good flowing from love to the Lord, receive revelation as a result of perception. But those who are not governed by good or from this by truth can indeed receive revelations, but not those that are the result of perception, only those which come to them through a voice which they hear speaking within themselves and so through angels from the Lord. This kind of revelation is external, whereas the other kind is internal. Revelation resulting from perception is the kind that angels, especially celestial ones, receive. It was also the kind received by members of the Most Ancient Church, and by some members of the Ancient Church too; but scarcely anyone receives such at the present day. Very many people however, including those who have not been governed by good, have received revelations from conversations [with angels] which did not involve any perception, the same as with those receiving revelations through visions or through dreams.

[3] Most of the revelations received by the prophets in the Jewish Church were of this kind - they heard a voice, saw a vision, or dreamed a dream. But because they had no perception these were merely verbal or visual revelations which did not involve any perception about what was really meant by them. For genuine perception comes from the Lord through heaven; it fills the understanding with spiritual ideas and leads it, as may be perceived, to think along the lines of, and inwardly to recognize, the true nature of a thing. The source of that power of recognition is not known, but the understanding imagines that it begins within itself and springs from the interconnected ideas it has present within itself. But in fact that power is a dictate coming from the Lord by way of heaven into the interior parts of ones thought regarding the things that are above and beyond the natural and the senses, that is, the kinds of things that belong to the spiritual world or heaven. From all this one may see what revelation resulting from perception is. But the revelation resulting from perception which the Lord, who is represented here by 'Joseph', had - which revelation is the subject here in the internal sense - sprang from the Divine within Himself, and so originated in Himself.

2447. 'From Jehovah out of heaven' means from the laws of order in regard to truth, because they separate themselves from good. This does not become clear except from the internal sense, by means of which the truth of the matter regarding forms of punishment and condemnation is disclosed, namely that the author of these is in no sense Jehovah or the Lord, but man, evil spirit, or devil himself; and this is so from the laws of order in regard to truth because they separate themselves from good.

[2] All order begins in Jehovah, that is, in the Lord, and it is in accordance with that order that He rules over every single thing. But there is much variation to His rule; that is to say, it may be His Will, or His Good Pleasure, or His Consent, or His Permission from which He rules. Things that have their origin in His will or in His good pleasure are products of laws of order which have regard to what is good, as also do many things that exist by His consent, and even some that do so by His permission. But when a person separates himself from good he subjects himself to the laws of order which are those of truth separated from good and which are such as condemn. For all truth condemns a person and casts him down into hell; but out of good, that is, out of mercy, the Lord rescues him and raises him up into heaven. From this it is clear that it is a person himself who condemns himself.

[3] Things that are the result of permission are for the most part of this nature - for example, besides countless others, the fact that one devil punishes and torments another. These things are from the laws of order in regard to truth separated from good, for there is no other way in which such devils could be kept under control and prevented from rushing on all the good and upright and destroying them eternally. The prevention of their doing this is the good which the Lord has in view. This is similar to what happens on earth where a benign and compassionate ruler exists who intends and does nothing but good. If he did not allow his laws to punish evil and criminal persons - though he himself punishes nobody but instead grieves that those people are such that their evils must punish them - he would leave his kingdom itself open to plunder by such people; and this would be a manifestation of a complete lack of benignity and compassion.

[4] From these considerations it is evident that Jehovah in no way rained down brimstone and fire, that is, condemned to hell, but that those subject to evil and to falsity which arises out of this did so, the reason being that they separated themselves from good and in so doing put themselves under the laws of order deriving from truth alone. From all this it follows that such is the internal sense of these words.

[5] In the Word, evil, punishment, cursing, condemnation, and many other things are attributed to Jehovah or the Lord, similar to the attribution here that He rained brimstone and fire: in Ezekiel,

I will dispute with him with pestilence and blood; fire and brimstone will I rain on him. Ezekiel 38:22.

In Isaiah,

The breath of Jehovah is like a stream of burning brimstone. Isaiah 30:33.

In David,

Jehovah will rain on the wicked snares, fire and brimstone. Psalms 11:6.

In the same author,

Smoke went up out of His nose, and fire out of His mouth devoured; glowing coals flamed forth from Him. Psalms 18:8-9.

In Jeremiah,

Lest My wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it. Jeremiah 21:12.

In Moses,

Fire has flared up in My anger, and will burn right down to the lowest hell. Deuteronomy 32:22.

Similar attributions occur in many other places besides these. Why in the Word such things are attributed, as has been stated, to Jehovah or the Lord has been explained in Volume One, in 223, 245, 589, 592, 696, 735, 1093, 1683, 1874. The idea that such things come from the Lord is as remote from the truth as good is from evil, or heaven from hell, or what is Divine from what is of the devil. Evil, hell, and the devil do those things, and in no way the Lord who is mercy itself and good itself. But because those things do seem to come from Him, for reasons presented in the paragraphs just quoted, they are attributed to Him.

[6] From the wording of this verse, 'Jehovah rained from Jehovah out of heaven', it seems in the sense of the letter as though there were two of Them - one on earth, and one in heaven. But the internal sense teaches how this matter is to be understood, namely as follows: The Jehovah mentioned first means the Lord's Divine Human and His Holy proceeding, which in this chapter are meant by 'the two men', while the Jehovah mentioned second means the Divine itself, called the Father, who is referred to in the previous chapter. The internal sense also teaches that this Trinity exists within the Lord, as He Himself says in John,

He who has seen Me has seen the Father. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me. John 14:9-11.

And referring to the Holy proceeding He says in the same gospel,

The Paraclete will not speak from Himself. He will receive it from what is Mine and declare it to you. John 16:13-15.

Thus there is but one Jehovah even though two are mentioned here. Two are mentioned because all laws of order spring from the Lord's Divine itself, Divine Human, and Holy proceeding.