175. I will give him power over the nations, signifies over the evils within him, which will then be scattered by the Lord. This is evident from the signification of "nations," as being evils (of which presently); and from the signification of "giving power over them," as being that these (the evils) will then be dispersed by the Lord. "To have power," in reference to "over the nations," means to scatter in reference to evils; thus there is an adaptation of words to their subjects. It is said that evils will be scattered by the Lord, for the Lord scatters evils by means of truths. He first discovers them to man by means of truths, and when man acknowledges the evils, the Lord scatters them. (That the Lord alone does this, see The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem 200.) "Nations and peoples" are often mentioned in the Word, and those who know nothing of the spiritual or internal sense of the Word, believe that peoples and nations are to be understood. But "peoples" mean those who are in truths, or in the contrary sense those who are in falsities, and "nations" those who are in goods, or in the contrary sense, those who are in evils. And as such are meant by "peoples" and by "nations," so abstractly from persons "peoples" mean truths or falsities, and "nations" goods and evils; for the true spiritual sense is abstracted from persons, spaces, times, and like things, that are proper to nature.

[2] With these the natural sense of the Word, which is the sense of its letter, is at one; and the sense that is at one with these serves as a basis to the sense that is apart from them. For all things that are in nature are ultimates of Divine order, and the Divine does not rest in the middle, but flows down even to its ultimates, and there subsists. From this it is that the Word in the letter is such as it is, and unless it were such it would not serve as a basis for the wisdom of angels who are spiritual. It can be seen from this how mistaken those are who despise the Word on account of its style. "Nations" signify those who are in good, and in the abstract, goods, because men who lived in ancient times were divided into nations, families, and houses; and they then loved each other mutually; and the father of a nation loved the whole nation which was from him; thus the good of love reigned among them. For this reason "nations" signified goods. But when men came into the opposite state, which took place in the following ages when empires were established, then "nations" signified evils. (See further on this subject in the small work on The Earths in the Universe 49, 90, 173, 174.)

[3] That "nations" in the Word signify either goods or evils, and "people" either truths or falsities, can be seen from the following passages. In Isaiah:

Nations shall walk to Thy light, and kings to the brightness of Thy rising. Then shalt Thou see and flow together, and Thine heart shall be enlarged, because the multitude of the sea is converted unto Thee, the army of the nations come unto Thee; Thy gates shall be opened continually, they shall not be shut by day and by night, that men may bring unto Thee the army of the nations, and their kings shall be brought; for the nation or kingdom that will not serve Thee shall perish; and the nations by wasting shall be wasted. Thou shalt suck the milk of nations, even the breasts of kings shalt Thou suck. The little one shall become a thousand, and the few a numerous nation (Isaiah 60:3, 5, 11-12, 16, 22).

Here the Lord is treated of; and by "nations" all who are in the good of love to Him are meant, and by "kings" all who are in the truths of faith in Him. From this it is manifest who are meant by the "nations" that "shall walk to Thy light;" and by "the army of the nations that shall be brought;" also, who are meant by "the kings" that "shall walk to the brightness of Thy rising;" and by "the kings of the nations" that "shall be brought;" also, what is meant by "Thou shalt suck the milk of nations and the breasts of kings" ("milk" is the delight of the good of love, likewise "breasts," for milk is from them). The multiplication of truth and the fructification of good are described by the "little one shall become a thousand, and the few a numerous nation." But by "the nations that shall be wasted" are meant all that are in evils, and also the evils themselves.

[4] In the same:

Behold I will lift up My hand towards the nations, and set up Mine ensign towards the peoples, that they may bring thy sons in the bosom, and carry thy daughters upon the shoulder; and kings shall be thy nourishers and the chief women thy sucklers; with the face to the earth shall they bow down to thee (Isaiah 49:22, 23).

Here also the Lord is treated of, and those who shall worship and adore Him. To "lift up His hand towards the nations, and His ensign towards the peoples, " ¹ is to join to Himself all who are in the goods of love and in truths therefrom; of these it is said that "they shall bring thy sons in the bosom, and carry thy daughters upon the shoulder;" "sons" are the affections of truth, and "daughters" the affections of good (See above, n. 166). And of these it is said that their "kings shall be thy nourishers, and the chief women thy sucklers." "Kings" are truths themselves, "chief women" are the goods thereof; and as man is regenerated by both of these, and also nourished, it is said that they shall be "nourishers" and "sucklers." (That man is regenerated by means of truths and a life according to them, see in The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem 23, 24, 27, 186.) This is the internal sense of these words; without that sense who could understand them?

[5] In the same:

Jehovah said, Behold I spread out upon Jerusalem peace as a river, and as a torrent the glory of the nations, that ye may suck. He will come to gather all nations and tongues, that they may come and see My glory. They shall declare My glory among the nations; then shall they bring your brethren out of all nations, as a gift to Jehovah, upon horses and upon the chariot, to the mountain of My holiness (Isaiah 66:12, 18-20).

Here "Jerusalem" is the Lord's church in the heavens and on the earth; it is said the church in the heavens, for the church is there also (See in the work on Heaven and Hell 221-227). By "nations and tongues" all who are in the goods of love and in truths therefrom are meant. It is said that "they shall bring out of all nations a gift to Jehovah, upon horses and upon the chariot;" "a gift to Jehovah" is worship from the good of love; "horses and chariots" are intellectuals and doctrinals, for these are the source and foundation of worship. (That this is what "horses and chariots" signify, see The White Horse 1-5.)

[6] In the same:

It shall be in that day that a Root of Jesse, which shall stand for a sign of the people, the nations shall seek (Isaiah 11:10). "The root of Jesse" is the Lord; "to stand for a sign of the people" means that it may be seen by those who are in truths; "the nations which shall seek," are those who are in the good of love. It is believed that "nations" here mean the nations that are to approach and acknowledge the Lord, from which is to be the church that is called the church of the Gentiles; but these are not meant by "nation" but all who are in love to the Lord and faith in Him, whether within the church or out of it (See in the work on Heaven and Hell 308, 318-328).

[7] In the same:

A strong people shall honor Thee, the city of the powerful nations shall fear thee (Isaiah 25:3).

In the same:

Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation may enter in. Thou hast increased the nation, O Jehovah, Thou hast increased the nation, Thou art glorified (Isaiah 26:2, 15).

In the same:

Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye peoples (Isaiah 34:1).

In the same:

I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations (Isaiah 42:6).

In Jeremiah:

The nations shall bless themselves in Him, and in Him shall they glory (Jeremiah 4:2).

In the same:

Who will not fear Thee, O king of nations? and in all their kingdom there is none like unto Thee (Jeremiah 10:7).

In Daniel:

I was seeing in the night visions, and behold with the clouds of heaven One like the Son of man. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom; and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall worship Him (Daniel 7:13, 14).

In David:

The peoples shall give thanks unto Thee, O God; all the peoples shall give thanks unto Thee. Let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for Thou shalt judge the peoples with equity, and shalt lead the nations upon the earth (Psalms 67:3, 4).

In the same:

That I may see the good of Thy chosen, and be glad in the joy of Thy nations (Psalms 106:5).

In Revelation:

The glory and honor of the nations shall be brought into the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:26).

In Isaiah:

Ye shall be called priests of Jehovah; ministers of your ² God, it shall be said to you. Ye shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory shall ye glory (Isaiah 61:6).

In the Lamentations:

The breath of our nostrils, the Anointed of Jehovah, was taken in their pits; of whom we had said, In His shadow we shall live among the nations (Lamentations 4:20).

In these passages, by "nations" all who are in love to the Lord, whether within the church where the Word is or outside it, are meant.

[8] That by "nations" in a contrary sense those who are in evils are meant, and in the abstract, evils themselves, can be seen from the following passages. In Jeremiah:

I will bring a nation upon you from far, it is a mighty nation; it is a nation of an age, a nation whose tongue thou shalt not know. It shall eat up thy harvest and thy bread; it shall eat up thy sons and thy daughters; it shall eat up thy vine and thy fig-tree; it shall impoverish the cities with the sword (Jeremiah 5:15, 17).

The vastation of the church is here treated of; and by "nation" is meant the evil that will consummate it; it is therefore said, that "it shall eat up the harvest and the bread," "the sons and daughters," "the vine and the fig-tree," and "shall impoverish the cities with the sword;" by which all the goods of love and the truths of faith are signified; by "harvest" a state of the reception of truth from good (See Arcana Coelestia 9295); by "bread" the good of love (See in The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem 218); by "sons and daughters" the affections of truth and good (See above, n. 166); by "vine" the internal church, thus the internal things of the church (See Arcana Coelestia 1069, 5113, 6376, 9277); by "fig-tree" the external church, thus the external things of the church (Arcana Coelestia 5113); by "cities" doctrines (Arcana Coelestia 402, 2449, 2712, 2943, 3216, 4492, 4493); by "sword" falsity destroying (See above, n. 73, 131). From this it can be seen that by "nations" is signified the evil that destroys all these.

[9] In the same:

Behold I lay stumbling-blocks before this people, that they may stumble upon them, the fathers and the sons together. Behold, a people cometh from the land of the north, and a great nation from the sides of the earth. They have no compassion, their voice roareth like the sea, and they ride upon horses (Jeremiah 6:21-23).

Here also "nation" means evil, and "peoples" falsities, "the stumbling-blocks upon which the fathers and the sons stumble" are the perversions of good and truth ("fathers" are goods, and "sons" truths therefrom). It is said, "a people from the land of the north, and a nation from the sides of the earth," for the "north" signifies falsity from evil, and "the sides of the earth" signify what is outside of the church, thus evils remote from the goods of the church. "To roar like the sea, and to ride upon horses," is to persuade by fallacies of the senses, and by reasonings therefrom.

[10] In Ezekiel:

The land is full of the judgment of bloods, and the city is full of violence, wherefore I will bring the worst of the nations, that they may occupy their houses; the king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with stupor (Ezekiel 7:23-24, 27).

The "land" is the church; "full of the judgment of bloods" is to be in falsities that destroy goods; "city" is doctrine; "full of violence" is to use force against the good of charity; "the worst of the nations" are direful falsities from evil; "to occupy their houses" is to possess their minds; "the king who shall mourn" is the truth of the church; "the prince who shall be clothed with stupor," is subservient truth. (That the "land" is the church, see Arcana Coelestia 662, 1066, 1068, 1262, 1413, 1607, 2928, 3355, 4447, 4535, 5577, 8011, 9325, 9643; that "bloods" are falsities destroying good, n. 374, 1005, 4735, 5476, 9127; that "city" is doctrine, n. 2268, 2449, 2451, 2712, 2943, 3216, 4492, 4493; that "violence" is using force against the good of charity, n. 6353; that "houses" are the things of man that belong to his mind, n. 710, 2231, 2233, 2559, 3128, 3538, 4973, 5023, 6690, 7353, 7848, 7910, 7929, 9150; that "the king who shall mourn" is the truth of the church, see above n. 31.)

[11] In David:

Jehovah bringeth the counsel of the nations to naught, He overthroweth the thoughts of the peoples (Psalms 33:10).

"Nations" mean those who are in evils, and "peoples" those who are in falsities; and because both are signified, it is said that "Jehovah bringeth the counsel of the nations to naught, and overthroweth the thoughts of the peoples," which are two expressions, as it were, of one thing, yet they are distinct in the internal sense, in which "nations" signify one thing, and "peoples" another.

[12] In Luke:

Then they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive among all nations, and at length Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations, until the time of the nations be fulfilled. Then there shall be signs in sun, moon, and stars, and upon the earth anguish of nations, the sea and the waves roaring (Luke 21:24-25).

The consummation of the age is here treated of, which is the last time of the church, when there is no longer any faith because there is no charity, or no truth because there is no good. This is here described by correspondences: "to fall by the edge of the sword" is to be destroyed by falsities; "to be led captive among all nations" is to be possessed by evils of every kind; "Jerusalem, which shall be trodden down," is the church; the "sun" is love to the Lord; the "moon" faith in Him; the "stars" the knowledges of good and truth; the "signs" in them mean that these are to perish; "the sea and the waves that shall roar" are fallacies and reasonings therefrom.

[13] In Matthew:

Nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. And they shall deliver you unto affliction, and ye shall be hated of all the nations for My name's sake (Matthew 24:7, 9; Luke 21:10, 11).

These things also were said by the Lord respecting the last time of the church; and by "nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" is signified that there will be conflicts of evils and falsities among themselves; by "famines and pestilences" are signified the failure and wasting of truths; by "earthquakes" the perversion of the church; by "being hated of all nations" is signified to be hated by all who are in evil; "the name of the Lord," for the sake of which they shall be hated, signifies all things of love and faith whereby the Lord is worshiped (See above, n. 102, 135).

[14] In Ezekiel:

Behold Asshur a cedar in Lebanon. He has become high, and his branches have been multiplied. In his branches have all the fowl of the heavens built their nests, and under his branches all the beasts of the field have brought forth, and in his shade have dwelt all great nations. But his heart is lifted up in his height; therefore I will give him into the hand of the strong one of the nations, strangers shall cut him off, the violent of the nations, and they shall cast him down; whence all peoples of the earth have gone down from his shadow, and have abandoned him (Ezekiel 31:3, 5, 6, 10-12).

These things no one can understand unless he has a knowledge of the spiritual or internal sense of the Word. He will believe them to be mere comparisons, in which there is no spiritual signification; when yet all the particulars therein signify things of heaven and the church; therefore they shall be explained briefly. "Asshur" is the rational of the man of the church which is illustrated; this is called "a cedar in Lebanon," because a "cedar" has the same signification as "Asshur," specifically truth from good in the rational; and "Lebanon" is the mind where the rational resides, because there were cedars in Lebanon.

By "his branches that were multiplied" are meant truths therefrom; "the fowl of the heavens that built their nests in his branches" are the affections of truth; and "the beasts of the field that brought forth under his branches" are the affections of good; the "great nations that dwelt in his shade" are the goods of love; "his heart lifted up in his height" is the love of self; "to be given into the hands of the strong one of the nations," and "to be cast down by the violent of the nations," means that evils from that love will destroy goods and truths; "the peoples of the earth that went down from his shadow and abandoned him" are all truths of the church. From this it is manifest that "nations" signify goods, and in the contrary sense evils; by "the nations that dwelt in his shade," goods; and by "the nations that cut him off, and cast him down," evils. (See, moreover, what is said and shown about nations and their signification in Arcana Coelestia, namely, that by "nations" in the Word are meant those who are in good, and consequently goods themselves, n. 1059, 1159, 1258, 1260, 1416, 1849, 6005; "the assembly of the nations," truths and goods, n. 4574, 7830; "the holy nation," the spiritual kingdom, n. 9255, 9256; when it is said "nation and people," by "nation" those who are in celestial good are meant, and by "people" those who are in spiritual good, n. 10288. That by "nations," especially the nations of the land of Canaan, evils and falsities of every kind are meant, n. 1059, 1205, 1868, 6306, 8054, 8317, 9320, 9327).

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462. The fourth experience ¹

In the spiritual world I looked towards the sea-coast and saw a splendid port. On approaching I looked inside and there lay boats both great and small, containing cargoes of every kind; and on their thwarts sat boys and girls who distributed the goods to any that wished. 'We are waiting,' they said, 'for our lovely turtles to appear. They will come out of the sea to us at any moment.'

Then I saw turtles, both small and great, on whose shells and scales sat baby turtles, all looking towards the surrounding islands. The father turtles had two heads, a large one covered with shell like that of their bodies, which gave them a ruddy look; the other a small one of the sort turtles have, which they could draw back into the forepart of their bodies, and could make invisible by inserting it into the larger head. But I kept my gaze on the large, ruddy head, and made out that it had a face like a human being, and was talking with the boys and girls on the thwarts and was licking their hands. The boys and girls fondled them and gave them tit-bits and delicacies, as well as valuable goods such as silk for clothes, citron-wood for tables, purple for ornament and scarlet for dyeing.

[2] On seeing these I wanted to know what they represented, because I know that all sights seen in the spiritual world are correspondences, representing the spiritual effects of affection and the thought it produces. Then I was spoken to from heaven and told: 'You know yourself what the port and the ships represent, as well as the boys and girls on the thwarts; but you do not know what the turtles are. They represent,' they said, 'those of the clergy there who totally separate faith from charity and its good deeds, insisting to themselves that there is obviously no possibility of linking them, but the Holy Spirit by means of faith in God the Father for the sake of the Son's merit enters into a person and purifies him inwardly even as far as his own will, which they imagine as a sort of oval plane. When the working of the Holy Spirit approaches this plane, it twists aside around its left edge without touching it at all, so that the interior or upper part of the person's character is for God, and the exterior or lower part is for man. Thus nothing the person does appears in God's sight, neither good nor bad; the good does not, because this would be to acquire merit, and the bad does not because it is bad. Either of these, if it were presented to God's sight, would destroy the person, Since this is so, a person may will, think, speak and do whatever he pleases, so long as he takes precautions from a worldly point of view,'

[3] I asked whether they also held that one might think of God as not being omnipresent and omniscient. I was told from heaven that this too is allowed them, because in the case of one who has acquired faith and been purified and justified by it, God pays no attention to any thought or will on his part, but he still retains in the inward recess or higher region of his mind or character the faith which he had received by its activity, and that this activity may from time to time recur without the person's knowledge. 'These facts are represented by the small head which they draw back into the forepart of their bodies and also insert into the larger head when talking to laymen. For in speaking to them they do not use the small head, but the large one, the front of which has a kind of human face. Their talk with them is based on the Word, about love, charity, good deeds, the Ten Commandments, repentance; and they quote from the Word almost everything which is said there on these subjects. But then they insert the small head into the large one, which allows them inwardly to understand that these things are not to be done for God's sake or for salvation, but only for the sake of public or private advantage.

[4] 'But because they base their remarks on these subjects on the Word, especially in speaking with great charm and elegance of the Gospel, the working of the Holy Spirit and salvation, they seem to their hearers like handsome men endowed with wisdom beyond all others on the globe. This was why you saw them being given delicacies and valuable goods by the boys and girls sitting on the thwarts in the boats. So these are the people you saw represented as turtles. In your world they are hard to tell apart from others, except for the fact that they think they excel all others in wisdom, laughing at others, including those who hold similar views on faith, but are not privy to their secrets. They carry a seal with them in their clothing, by which they can make themselves known to others of their sort.'

[5] The person talking with me said: 'I shall not tell you their opinions on other matters to do with faith, such as the elect, free will, baptism and the Holy Supper. These are opinions that they do not divulge, though we in heaven know them. However, since this is the sort of people they are in the world, and after death no one is allowed to speak otherwise than he thinks, they are considered insane, because they are then unable to speak except for the mad ideas that fill their thoughts. So they are ejected from their communities, eventually being cast down into the pit of the abyss (mentioned in Revelation 9:2), becoming bodily spirits and looking like Egyptian mummies. A hard skin is drawn over the interiors of their minds, because in the world too they had set up a barrier there. The community they form in hell is adjacent to the one there composed of Machiavellians; they constantly visit one another and call themselves companions. But they leave them on account of their difference, in that they have some religious feeling about the act of justification by faith, while the Machiavellians have none.'

[6] After seeing them expelled from their communities and brought together ready to be cast down, I saw in the air a ship sailing under seven sails, and in it ships' officers and seamen dressed in purple with magnificent laurels on their hats. 'Here we are in heaven,' they shouted, 'we are purple-clad doctors, adorned with finer laurels than anyone else, because we are the leading wise men of all the clergy in Europe.' I wondered what this was, and I was told that they were pictures of pride and imaginary thoughts, known as fantasies, arising from those who previously appeared as turtles; now being cast out of their communities as insane, they were gathered into one group and were now standing in one place.

Then wishing to talk with them I approached the place where they were standing and greeted them. 'Are you,' I said, 'the people who separated people's internals from their externals, and the working of the Holy Spirit as in faith from the Spirit's co-operation with man outside of faith, thus separating God from man? Did you not by this take away not only charity itself and its deeds from faith, as many other doctors of the clergy do, but also faith itself in so far as it is displayed by man in the sight of God?

[7] But would you prefer me to talk to you on this subject by the light of reason, or by drawing upon Holy Scripture?' 'Speak first,' they said, 'by the light of reason.'

So I spoke and said: 'How can a person's internal and external be separated? Can anyone endowed with normal powers of perception fail to see, or fail to be capable of seeing, that all of a person's interiors extend into and are continued into his exteriors, reaching even to his outermost level so as to bring about their effects and perform what they want to do? Surely the internals exist for the sake of the externals, so that these may be where they end, and they may rest on them, so coming into being, very much as a column stands on its base. You can see that, if they were discontinuous and so not joined, the outermost layers would collapse and burst like a bubble in the air. Can anyone deny that the inward workings of God in a person number billions, all unknown to the person concerned; and what profit is it to know about them, so long as the outermost layers are known, the point at which he is in his thought and will together with God?

[8] 'Let us take an example to illustrate this. Surely no one is aware of the inward workings of his speech: how the lungs draw in air, which fills the vesicles, bronchi and lobes; how he expels the air into the trachea and there turns it into sound; how the sound is modified in the glottis by the help of the larynx, and how the tongue then articulates it, the lips completing the articulation, so that speech is produced. All those inward workings, of which the person is totally unaware, are for the sake of the end product, the person's ability to speak. Take away or separate one of those internal processes so that it is no longer continuous with the end product, and a person could no more talk than a block of wood.

[9] 'Let us take another example. The two hands form the extremities of the human body. But the internal parts which form a continuous link with them run from the head through the neck, then the chest, shoulder-blades, arms and elbows; and there are countless muscular tissues, countless rows of motor fibres, countless bundles of nerves and blood-vessels, and many joints of bones with their ligaments and membranes - is anyone aware of any of this? Yet it takes every single one of them to make the hands function. Suppose the internal parts twisted back to the left or the right around the wrist-joint and did not continue into the hands; would not the hand then fall away from the elbow and rot away like any lifeless part torn off? Or if you prefer the idea, it would be like what happens to the body when a person is beheaded. This is exactly what would happen to the human mind, together with its two kinds of life, the will and the understanding, if the Divine workings which have to do with faith and charity stopped mid-way, and did not extend without a break to man. To be sure, man then would be not merely an animal, but a rotten block of wood. Such conclusions are the product of reason.

[10] 'Now if you are willing to listen, the same things are in accordance with Holy Scripture. Does not the Lord say:

Remain in me and I in you. I am the vine and you are the branches. If someone remains in me and I in him, he bears much fruit, John 15:4-5.

Surely the fruits are the good deeds which the Lord does by means of man, and man does of himself under the Lord's guidance. The Lord also says that He stands at the door and knocks, and He goes in to anyone who opens the door, and dines with him and he with the Lord (Revelation 3:20). Does not the Lord give minas and talents for man to trade with and make a profit, and does He not give everlasting life in accordance with his profit (Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:13-26)? Or again, does He not give each man his pay in proportion to the work he does in the Lord's vineyard (Matthew 20:1-17)? These are but a few examples; pages could be filled with quotations from the Word showing that man should produce fruit like a tree, should act according to the commandments, love God and the neighbour, and much more besides.

[11] 'But I know that your own intelligence cannot have anything in common, regarded as it is essentially, with these teachings from the Word. Although you talk about them, your ideas pervert them. Nor can you help yourselves, because you take away from man everything that is God's as regards communication and the linking it produces. What is then left, but merely everything that has to do with public worship?'

Later on these people appeared to me in the light of heaven, which uncovers and makes visible what sort of person each one is. Then they did not appear as before in a ship sailing through the air as if in heaven, nor did the people in it have purple clothing and laurels around their heads. But they were in a sandy place, clothed in rags, with nets like fishermen's round their lower parts, through which their nakedness was visible. Then they were sent down to join a community which was adjacent to that of the Machiavellians.

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