8942. 'For if you move your chisel over it' means if a product of the proprium or self. This is clear from the meaning of 'chisel' as counterfeit truth, thus a product of the self. For a chisel is a piece of iron used to carve and shape figures out of stones, and therefore the human self is meant here since this shapes things which are to compose religion, to make them look like the truth. Instead of the word 'chisel' some places elsewhere have '[a piece of] iron', while others elsewhere have 'axe', as in Deuteronomy 27:5; Joshua 8:30-31; 1 Kings 6:7; Isaiah 44:10-12; Hosea 13:2; Jeremiah 10:3-4; and these tools mean such things as are implements of self-intelligence used for fabrication.

5119. 'And I took the grapes and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup means a reciprocal influx into good deeds that have a spiritual origin. This is clear from the meaning of 'grapes' as the good deeds of charity, dealt with just above in 5117, and so as good deeds that have a spiritual origin, since every good deed of genuine charity originates there; and from the meaning of 'pressing into Pharaoh's cup' as a reciprocal influx. The expression 'reciprocal influx' does not mean that the exterior natural flows into the interior natural, for that is not possible. Exterior things cannot by any means flow into interior ones, or what amounts to the same, lower or posterior things into higher or prior ones. The reciprocal influx takes place when the rational calls forth things present in the interior natural, and also, by means of the interior natural, those present in the exterior natural. Not that it calls forth what actually exists there but what is deduced or so to speak extracted from what is there. This is what the reciprocal influx is.

[2] It does seem as though things in the world pass by way of the senses into what is present within; but that is an illusion of the senses. The reality is that what exists within flows into what is outward, and that this influx is what enables discernment to take place. I have discussed these matters with spirits on several occasions and have been shown through actual experiences that the interior man sees and discerns within the exterior man what is taking place outside the exterior man, and that the life of the senses has no other origin; that is, neither the ability to perceive with the senses nor actual sensory perception has any other origin. But the nature and power of this illusion are such that it cannot by any means be banished from the natural man, nor even from the rational, unless the rational man can be made to stand aside from sensory impressions. All this has been mentioned to show what reciprocal influx is.