5614. 'We would by now have returned these two times' means that spiritual life, exterior and interior, [would have been restored]. This is clear from the meaning of 'going' as living, dealt with above in 5605, and therefore 'going back' is a subsequent phase of living (for they went to Egypt to acquire grain for themselves, and 'grain' means the good of truth that is the product of spiritual life); and from the meaning of 'these two times', since this has reference to life, as exterior life and interior life. The corn which they received the first time meant exterior life, which is life in the natural, for the reason, dealt with in the previous chapter, that they did not have the intermediary with them. But the grain which they receive this time means interior life, for now they did have Benjamin, who is the intermediary, with them, this being the subject in the present chapter and the next one. All this explains why 'we would by now have returned these two times' means spiritual life, exterior and interior.

[2] It is bound to seem strange that these things are meant, especially to someone who has no knowledge of what is spiritual; for it seems as though 'returning these two times' does not have the vaguest connection with what is actually meant, namely spiritual life. But this really is the inner meaning of these words. Indeed - if you are willing to believe it - that spiritual meaning is what the interior thought of a person moved by good comprehends, for that interior thought exists on the same level as the internal sense, though the person himself is totally ignorant of this while he lives in the body. For the internal or spiritual sense, which exists on the level of his interior thought, comes down without him knowing it into material ideas formed by his senses. These ideas rely for their formation on time and space and on the kinds of things that exist in the world, so that it is not evident to him that his interior thought is of such a nature. His interior thought is by nature the same as that of the angels, for his spirit dwells in communion with them.

[3] The fact that the thought of a person moved by good accords with the internal sense may be recognized from the consideration that when he enters heaven after death he knows that internal sense without ever at all having to learn about it, which would by no means be possible if in the world his interior thought had not existed on the same level as that sense. It exists on the same level because of the correspondence between spiritual things and natural ones, the nature of which is such that not even the smallest thing is without correspondence. Therefore since the interior or rational mind of a person moved by good is in the spiritual world and his exterior or natural mind is in the natural world, both of these parts of his mind inevitably engage in thought. But his interior mind thinks on a spiritual level, his exterior mind on a natural level; also what is spiritual comes down into what is natural, and then through correspondence the two act as one.

[4] A person's interior mind, in which the ideas constituting the thought there are called intellectual concepts and are referred to as immaterial ideas, does not rely, when it is engaged in thought, on verbal expressions belonging to any language. Consequently it does not rely on any natural forms. This may be recognized by anyone who is able to stop and reflect on these matters; for he can in an instant see in his mind what he can hardly express verbally in an hour, by the use of general observations which include very many details. The ideas constituting his thought are spiritual ones and are no different in nature, when the Word is read, from the spiritual sense. Even so, that person is quite unaware of this, for the reason already stated that those spiritual ideas flow into the natural and present themselves within natural ideas. Thus those spiritual ideas are in apparent, so completely that unless a person has received instruction in the matter he imagines that the spiritual does not exist unless it is like the natural, indeed that he does not think within his spirit in any different way from that in which he speaks in the body. Such is the way that the natural conceals the spiritual.

5605. 'And we will rise up and go, and we will live and not die' means spiritual life entered into by degrees. This is clear from the meaning of 'rising up' as a raising up to higher or more internal things, and therefore to those that constitute spiritual life, dealt with in 2401, 2785, 2912, 2927, 3171, 4103, 4881; from the meaning of 'going' as living, dealt with in 3335, 3690, 4882, 5493 (and since 'and we will live' follows, 'going' means the earliest stage of spiritual life); from the meaning of 'living' as spiritual life, for no other kind of life is meant in the internal sense of the Word; and from the meaning of 'not dying' as standing condemned no longer, that is, standing outside a state of condemnation, for no other kind of death is meant in the internal sense of the Word than spiritual death, which is condemnation. From all this it is evident that 'we will rise up and go, and we will live and not die' means life entered into by degrees. That is to say, an introductory phase leading into life is meant by 'rising up', the earliest stage of that life by 'going', that life fully under way by 'living', and guidance away from everything alien to that life by 'not dying'.

[2] The idea that living is meant in the internal sense by 'going' will seem strange to one who does not know anything about spiritual life. But much the same is involved here as with the expression 'travelling on', namely an ordered life and a further stage of life, 1293, 4375, 4554, 4585; receiving instruction and leading a life in keeping with it, 1463, 2025, 3672. The reason why 'going', 'travelling on', and 'sojourning' have these meanings can, it is true, be stated; yet it is the kind of reason that makes little sense to those who have no knowledge of the exact nature of people's movements in the next life. Moving about and advancements made by people there are nothing else, since they have no other origin, than changes in their states of life. Such changes present themselves in outward actions as nothing other than advances from one place to another. The truth of this has been proved to me from many an experience I have had in the next life. In my spirit I have walked with and among those there, and have moved through their many dwelling-places; and I have done so even though my body remained all the time in the same place. I have talked to them about how this could be so and have learned that changes in their states of life are what constitute the advances people make in the spiritual world.

[3] The same has also been proved to me by the fact that spirits are able, through changes of state that are effected, to be somewhere high up and then in an instant somewhere deep down, or to be far away in the west and then in an instant in the east, and so on. But, as stated, this is bound to seem strange to someone who does not know anything about life in the spiritual world. For in that world no intervals of space or of time exist, but states of life instead of these. Such states produce externally a visible scene with all the appearance of life involving advances and movement. The scene that appears is so vivid and real that it is an appearance of life itself; that is to say, the appearance is that life exists inherently within us, and so is essentially our own, when in actual fact life flows into us from the Lord, the source from which all life involves much the same, namely and the expression 'sojourning springs, see 2021, 2658, 2706, 2886-2888, 3001, 3318, 3337, 3338, 3484, 3619, 3741-3743, 4151, 4249, 4318-4320, 4417, 4523, 4524, 4882. Because 'going' and 'moving' mean living, the ancients had the saying, In God we move, and live, and have our being. By 'moving' they meant the external degree of life, by 'living' the internal degree, and by 'having one's being' the inmost degree.