569. Loose the four angels that are bound at the great river Euphrates.- That this signifies reasonings from fallacies pertaining to the sensual man, which were not received before, is evident from the signification of the angels at the river Euphrates, as denoting reasonings from fallacies which are in the sensual man, of which in what follows. And because reasonings from fallacies were not received in the church before, therefore those angels are said to be bound at that river, and are said to be four from the conjunction of falsity with evil, for this number, in the Word signifies the conjunction of good and truth, and in the opposite sense, as here, the conjunction of evil and falsity; see above (n. 283, 384, 532). In the preceding verses the sensual man, who is in the falsities of evil, and the result of the persuasions in which the sensual man is, were treated of, therefore in what now follows, reasonings from the Sensual are dealt with. And because the Sensual reasons only from such things as, in the world, are manifest to the senses, it does so from fallacies, called fallacies of the senses, when it reasons concerning spiritual things, that is, concerning the things of heaven and the church, and therefore it is here said, reasonings from fallacies pertaining to the sensual man; but concerning these fallacies and reasoning from them, more will be said in what follows.

[2] The subject here treated of is the state of the church at its very end, and such state exists when the men of the church, having become sensual, reason from the fallacies of the senses; and when they reason from these concerning the things of heaven and the church, then they absolutely believe nothing, because they understand nothing. It is a thing known in the church, that the natural man does not perceive the things of heaven, unless the Lord flows in and enlightens him, and this takes place by means of the spiritual man; much less can the sensual man [understand and believe], because this is the ultimate of the Natural, to which the things of heaven, called spiritual things, are altogether in thick darkness. Genuine reasonings concerning spiritual things exist from the influx of heaven into the spiritual man, and thence through the rational into the knowledges (scientiae) and cognitions that are in the natural man, by which the spiritual man confirms itself. This method of reasoning concerning spiritual things is according to order. But the reasonings of the natural man and still more of the sensual man concerning spiritual things are altogether contrary to order; for the natural man, and still less the sensual man, cannot flow into the spiritual man, and from itself see any thing there, since physical influx does not exist. But the spiritual man can flow into the natural, and thence into the sensual, for spiritual influx does exist. But upon this subject more may be seen in the Doctrine of the New Jerusalem 51, 277, 278).

[3] From these considerations it is clear that the meaning of the things which now follow, is that at the very end of the church man speaks and reasons concerning spiritual things, or concerning the things of heaven and the church, from the corporeal Sensual, and thus from the fallacies of the senses, consequently, that although he then speaks in favour of Divine things, yet he does not think in favour of them. For man can, from the body, speak differently from what he thinks in his spirit, and the spirit, which thinks from the corporeal Sensual, cannot do otherwise than think contrary to Divine things; but still from the corporeal Sensual he can speak in favour of them, and especially because Divine things are the means of acquiring honours and gain. Every man has two memories, a natural memory and a spiritual memory, and he can think from both, from the natural memory when he speaks with men in the world, but from the spiritual memory when he speaks from his spirit. A man, however, rarely speaks with another from his spirit, but only with himself, which is to think. Sensual men cannot speak or think from their own spirit with themselves otherwise than in favour of nature, consequently in favour of things corporeal and worldly, because they think from the Sensual, and not from the Spiritual, they are even altogether ignorant of what the Spiritual is, because they have closed their spiritual mind, into which heaven flows by virtue of its light.

[4] But let us proceed to explain the signification of the words, the voice which was heard from the horns of the golden altar, saying to the sixth angel, that he should loose the four angels that were bound at the river Euphrates. The river Euphrates signifies the Rational, and therefore reasoning also. The reason of this signification of that river is, that it divided Assyria from the land of Canaan, and by Assyria, or Ashur, is signified the Rational, and by the land of Canaan, the Spiritual. There were three rivers which formed the boundaries of the land of Canaan, in addition to the sea, namely, the river of Egypt, the river Euphrates, and the river Jordan. The river of Egypt signified the knowledge (scientia) of the natural man; the river Euphrates signified the Rational pertaining to man, and derived from knowledges (scientiae) and cognitions, and the river Jordan signified entrance into the internal or spiritual church. For the regions on the other side Jordan where the tribes of Reuben and Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh had inheritances allotted to them, signified the external or natural church, and because that river was between those regions and the land of Canaan, and afforded a passage, therefore it signified entrance from the external church which is natural, into the internal church which is spiritual. This was the reason that baptism was there instituted, for baptism represented the regeneration of man, by means of which the natural man is introduced into the church, and becomes spiritual.

[5] From these considerations the signification of those three rivers in the Word is clear. All the places too which were outside the land of Canaan, signified such things as pertain to the natural man, whereas those which were within the land of Canaan signified such things as pertain to the spiritual man, thus those which pertain to heaven and the church. Those two rivers, therefore, the river of Egypt, or the Nile, and the river of Assyria, or Euphrates, signified the terminations of the church, and also introductions into the church. Cognitions also and knowledges (scientiae), which are signified by the river of Egypt, introduce, for without cognitions and knowledges (scientiae), no one can be introduced into the church, nor have a perception of those things which pertain to the church. For the spiritual man, by means of the rational, sees its spiritual things in knowledges, as a man sees himself in a mirror, and acknowledges itself in them, that is, its own truths and goods, and moreover confirms its spiritual things by cognitions and scientifics, both by those which are known from the Word, and those which are known from the world.

[6] But the river of Assyria, or the Euphrates, signified the Rational, because by means of it man is introduced into the church. By the Rational is meant the thought of the natural man from cognitions and knowledges, for a man who is imbued with knowledges (scientiae) is able to see things in a series, from primaries and mediates the ultimate, which is called the conclusion, consequently, he can analytically arrange, reflect upon, separate, conjoin things, and at length form conclusions upon them, even to that ulterior end and at length to the ultimate which forms the use that he loves. This then is the Rational, which is given to every man according to uses, which are the ends that he loves.

Because everyone's Rational is according to the uses of his love, therefore it is the interior thought of the natural man from the influx of the light of heaven; and because man by rational thought is introduced into spiritual thought, and becomes a church, therefore that river signifies the Natural introducing.

[7] It is one thing to be rational, and another thing to be spiritual; every spiritual man is also rational, but the rational man is not always spiritual; the reason is, that the Rational, that is, the thought thereof, is in the natural man, but the Spiritual is above the Rational, and by means of the Rational passes into the Natural, into the cognitions and scientifics of its memory.

[8] But it must be observed, that the Rational does not introduce any one into the Spiritual, but it is so said, only because it appears to be the case. For the Spiritual flows into the Natural by means of the Rational, and thus introduces. For the Spiritual is the inflowing Divine, it is the light of heaven, which is the proceeding Divine Truth. This [light] flows through the higher mind called the spiritual mind, into the lower mind called the natural mind, and conjoins this to itself, and by means of that conjunction causes the natural mind to form one with the spiritual. Introduction is thus effected. Since it is contrary to Divine order for man by his Rational to enter into the Spiritual, therefore in the spiritual world there are angelic guards to prevent this taking place. It is therefore evident, what is signified by the four angels bound at the river Euphrates, and afterwards what is meant by loosing them. By the angels bound at the river Euphrates, is signified guard lest the Natural of man should enter into the spiritual things of heaven and the church, for were this the case there would be nothing but errors and heresies, and at length negation.

[9] In the spiritual world there are also ways that lead to hell, and those that lead to heaven, likewise, ways which lead from spiritual things to natural, and thence to things sensual; and also in those ways guards are placed, lest any one should go in a contrary direction, for he would thence lapse into heresies and errors, as just stated. Those guards are placed by the Lord in the beginning when the church is being established, and are also maintained lest the man of the church, from his own reason or understanding, should introduce himself into the Divine things of the Word, and thence of the church. But in the end, when the men of the church are no longer spiritual, but natural, and many utterly sensual, and there being no way from the spiritual man into the natural with the man of the church, then those guards are removed, and the ways are opened, and being opened, they go in a contrary order, which is brought about by reasonings from fallacies. Hence it comes to pass that the man of the church can speak with the mouth in favour of Divine things, while in heart he thinks contrary to them, or he can speak in favour of them from the body, and think contrary to them from the spirit; for reasoning concerning Divine things from the natural and sensual man produces this effect. The signification of the four angels bound at the river Euphrates and of their being loosed is now evident from these things.

[10] That the river Euphrates signifies the Rational, by means of which there is a way from the spiritual man into the natural, is clear from the following passages in the Word.

Thus in Moses:

"Jehovah made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Genesis 15:18).

These words, in the sense of the letter, describe the extension of the land of Canaan, but in the internal sense, the extension of the church from its first to its final boundary; its first boundary is the Scientific, which is of the natural man, the other boundary is the Rational, which is of the thought. The Scientific which is of the natural man, is signified by the river of Egypt, or the Nile, and the Rational, which is of the thought, by the river of Assyria, or Euphrates; to these two the spiritual church, signified by the land of Canaan, extends itself, and similarly the spiritual mind of the man of the church. The Scientific and the Rational are both in the natural man, one limit of which is the scientific and cognitive [faculty] (scientificum et cognitivum), and the other is the intuitive and thinking [faculty] (intuitivum et cogitativum), and into these limits the spiritual man flows when it flows into the natural man. The conjunction of the Lord with the church by means of these is signified by the covenant which Jehovah established with Abraham. But these things are signified by the above words in the internal sense, while in the highest sense the union of the Divine Essence (Divine Essentiae) with the Human of the Lord is meant. These words are explained according to that sense in the Arcana Coelestia 1863-1866).

[11] So in Zechariah:

"His dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth" (9:10).

Similarly in David (Psalm 72:8).

These things are said concerning the Lord and His dominion over heaven and earth. By dominion from sea even to sea, is signified the extension of things natural, and by dominion from the river even to the ends of the earth, is signified the extension of things rational and spiritual; see also above (n. 518).

[12] So in Moses:

"The land of the Canaanites, and Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates. Behold, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land" (Deuteronomy 1:7, 8).

And again:

"Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours; from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be" (Deuteronomy 11:24).

So in Joshua:

"From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea, the going down of the sun, shall be your coast" (1:4).

In these passages the extension of the church from one boundary to the other is described, one of which pertains to the cognitive and scientific [faculty] and is signified by Lebanon and the sea, and the other pertains to intuition and thinking [faculty], and is signified by the river Euphrates. The extension of the land of Canaan denotes the extension of the church, for by the land of Canaan in the Word, is signified the church. The river is twice mentioned, namely, the great river, the river Euphrates, because by the great river is signified the influx of things spiritual into things rational, and by the river Euphrates, the influx of things rational into things natural, thus by both, the influx of things spiritual through the Rational into things natural.

[13] So in Micah:

"This is the day in which they shall come even to thee from Assyria, and unto the cities of Egypt, and thence from Egypt even to the river, and to sea from sea, and from mountain to mountain" (7:12).

The establishment of the church among the Gentiles by the Lord is described by these words. "This day" signifies the Lord's coming; the extension of the church among them from one end to the other is signified by "they shall come from Assyria, and unto the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt to the river." The extension of truth from one end to the other is signified by to sea from sea, and the extension of good by from mountain to mountain.

[14] In David:

"Thou hast caused a vine to go forth out of Egypt; thou hast cast out the nations and planted it, thou hast sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river" (Psalm 80:8, 11).

By the vine which God caused to go forth out of Egypt are meant the sons of Israel, also the church is signified, for a vine signifies the spiritual church, which church was also signified by the sons of Israel. And because the church is called a vine, it is therefore said, "Thou hast planted it; thou hast sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river," by which is described the extension of the spiritual things of the church, the sea denoting one extremity thereof, and the river, which means the Euphrates, denoting the other. By the Euphrates, which was the fourth river that went out of Eden (Genesis 2:14), is also signified the Rational, for the garden in Eden, or Paradise, signifies wisdom. The signification of the three other rivers may be seen explained in the Arcana Coelestia 107-121).

[15] Because the river Euphrates signifies the Rational, therefore, it signifies, in the opposite sense, reasoning. Reasoning here means thought, and argumentation from fallacies and falsities, but by the Rational are meant thought and argumentation from knowledges (scientiae) and truths. For every Rational is trained by knowledges (scientiae), and formed by truths, wherefore he who is led by truths, or whom truths lead, is called a rational man. But a man who is not rational can reason, for by various reasonings he can confirm falsities, and also induce the simple to believe them, and this is principally done through the fallacies of the senses, concerning which more will be said below.

[16] This reasoning is signified by the river Euphrates in the following passages:

"Now what hast thou to do with the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Shihor? or what hast thou to do with the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?" (Jeremiah 2:18).

These words signify, that spiritual things must not be investigated by means of the scientifics (scientifica) of the natural man, nor by reasonings therefrom, but by means of the Word, thus out of heaven from the Lord. For those who are in spiritual affection, and thought thence, see the scientifics of the natural man, and the reasonings therefrom, as it were, below them, but no one can see spiritual things from the latter, for lower things may be viewed on all sides from higher ground, but not conversely. To investigate spiritual things by means of the scientifics of the natural man, is signified by "what hast thou to do with the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Shihor?" And by reasonings therefrom is signified by "what hast thou to do with the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?" Egypt and its river signify the scientifics of the natural man, and Assyria and its river signify reasonings from them.

[17] So again, in Isaiah:

"In that day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, in the passages of the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet; and it shall also consume the beard" (7:20).

These words refer to the state of the church at its end, when the Lord was about to come. That reasonings from falsities, would then deprive the men of the church of all wisdom and spiritual intelligence, is described by the above words. Such reasonings are signified by "by the king of Assyria, in the passages of the river," that is, the Euphrates. The deprivation of spiritual wisdom, and of intelligence thence, is signified by the hair of the head and of the feet being shaved with a razor that is hired, and by the beard being consumed. For hairs signify natural things into which spiritual things operate, and wherein they close, therefore in the Word they signify the ultimates of wisdom and intelligence, the hair of the head signifies the ultimates of wisdom, the beard signifies the ultimates of intelligence, and the hair of the feet, the ultimates of knowledge (scientia). Without these ultimates, things prior can no more exist than a column without a base, or a house without a foundation. That those who have deprived themselves of intelligence by reasonings from fallacies and from falsities, appear bald in the spiritual world, may be seen above (n. 66).

[18] Again, in the same prophet:

"Behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river strong and many, the king of Assyria, and all his glory; and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks; he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over" (8:7, 8).

These words signify, that in the church the Word generally and in all its details, will be falsified by reasonings based on fallacies and falsities. The waters of the river, strong and many, the king of Assyria, signify reasonings from pure fallacies and falsities. He shall come up over all his channels, and over all his banks, signifies, that the Word generally and in all its details will be falsified. By Judah, which he shall overflow and pass through, is signified the church where the Word is, thus the Word.

[19] So again, in Jeremiah:

"Against the army of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, who was by the river Euphrates, which Nebuchadnezzar smote. They have stumbled and fallen toward the north by the bank of the river Euphrates" (46:2, 6).

These words signify the destruction of the church and its truths by false reasonings from scientifics; by the river Euphrates are signified false reasonings. By Egypt and the army thereof are signified confirmatory scientifics; by the north where they stumbled and fell, is signified whence those falsities arise. This passage also is more fully explained above (n. 518:38).

[20] Again, in the same prophet:

Jehovah told the prophet to go and buy a linen girdle and put it upon his loins, but not to put it in water; then that he should go to the river Euphrates and hide the girdle there in a hole of the rock; and he went and hid it by the Euphrates. "After the end of many days, Jehovah said, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence"; and he went and took it, "and behold the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing. As the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel, and the whole house of Judah, that they might be unto me for a name, for a praise, and for a glory, but they did not hear" (13:1-7, 11).

These things represented the quality of the Israelitish and Jewish church and its subsequent state. The girdle of linen which the prophet put upon his loins signifies the conjunction of the church with the Lord by means of the Word; for a prophet signifies doctrine from the Word, and the girdle upon the loins of the prophet signifies conjunction. The falsifications of the Word through evils of life and by falsities of doctrine, and the reasonings thence which favour them, are signified by the girdle being marred in the hole of the rock at Euphrates. For the conjunction of the Lord with the church is by means of the Word, and when this is perverted by reasonings which favour evils and falsities, then there is no longer conjunction, and this is meant by the girdle being profitable for nothing. That this was done by the Jews, is evident from the Word both of the old and of the new testament; from the Word of the new testament, that they had perverted all things written in the Word concerning the Lord, and also all the essentials of the church, and that they had falsified them by their traditions.

[21] So again, in Jeremiah:

"When thou hast made an end of reading this book, thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates; and thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise again" (51:63, 64).

By the book of the prophet which he read, is specifically meant that Word which was in that book, but in general, the whole Word. By his casting it into the midst of Euphrates, is signified, that the Word, in process of time through the reasonings which favour evils, would be falsified by those who are meant by Babylon, Babylon denoting those who adulterate the Word.

[22] Again, in Isaiah:

"Jehovah shall devote the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with the vehemence of his wind shall he shake his hand over the river Euphrates, and shall smite it into the seven streams, and make men go over dry shod. Then there shall be a high way for the remnant of his people which shall be left from Assyria; like as it was to Israel when he came up out of the land of Egypt" (11:15, 16).

These words signify that all falsities, and reasonings therefrom, shall be dissipated before those who are in truths from good from the Lord, or who belong to the church, and that they shall, as it were, pass safely through the midst of them. This is the case in the spiritual world with those whom the Lord defends. The same thing is here meant by the drying up of the Sea Suph (Red Sea) before the sons of Israel; those who shall pass through under the protection of the Lord are signified by the remnant of the people which shall be left from Assyria, those left from Assyria denoting those who have not perished by reasonings from falsities. The meaning of the following passage in the Apocalypse is similar:

"The sixth angel poured out his vial upon the river Euphrates, and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings who are from the east might be prepared" (16:12).

These words will be more fully explained below in their proper place.

[23] From these things, it is now evident, that the river Euphrates signifies the Rational, by means of which the spiritual mind enters into the natural [mind], and that, in the opposite sense it signifies reasoning from fallacies and from falsities. It must however be observed, that reasonings are in the same degree as the thoughts, for they descend from them; thus there are reasonings from the spiritual man, which however must be called rather conclusions from reasons and from truths; there are reasonings from the natural man, and also from the sensual man. Reasonings from the spiritual man are rational, therefore they must be called rather conclusions from reasons and from truths, because they are from the interior and from the light of heaven; but reasonings from the natural man concerning spiritual things are not rational, however much they may appear to be so in moral and civil matters, which appear before the eyes, for they are from natural light alone. But reasonings from the sensual man concerning spiritual things are irrational, because they are from fallacies, and thence from false ideas. It is this last class of reasonings that is now here treated of in the Apocalypse.

380. To this I will append two narrative accounts. Here is the first:

I was once in a state of amazement at the great number of people who attribute creation to nature, attributing to it therefore all things under the sun and all things above the sun. Whenever they see anything, they say with an acknowledgment of the heart, "Is this not a product of nature?" When they are asked then why they attribute these things to nature, and not to God, even though they sometimes say with everyone else that God created nature, and so could just as well attribute the things they see to God as to nature, they reply in a muffled, almost inaudible tone, "What is God but nature?"

As a result of their persuasion regarding the creation of the universe from nature, and that insanity masquerading as a product of wisdom, they all give the impression of being vainglorious, so vainglorious as to scorn all who acknowledge the creation of the universe as being from God, regarding them as ants crawling on the ground and treading the beaten path, and some as butterflies flitting about in the air. They call their dogmas dreams, because they see what they themselves do not see, and they say, "Who has seen God? And who has not seen nature?"

[2] As I was in a state of amazement at the multitude of such people, an angel stood beside me and said to me, "What are you meditating on?"

So I replied, "On the multitude of those who believe that nature created the universe."

Then the angel said to me, "The whole of hell consists of people like that, and they are called there satanic spirits and devils - satanic spirits, those who have convinced themselves on the side of nature and for that reason have denied God; devils, those who have lived wickedly and so have rejected from their hearts any acknowledgment of God. But I will take you down to forums located in the southwestern zone, where such people gather who are not yet in hell."

The angel then took me by the hand and led me down. And I saw cottages in which the forums were housed, and in the middle of them one that seemed to be the headquarters of the rest. It was built of pitchstones, which were overlaid with thin glass-like sheets of gold and silver, seemingly glittering, like those which are called isinglass ¹ ; and interspersed here and there were oyster-shells, similarly glistening.

[3] We went over to it and knocked; and presently someone opened the door and said, "Welcome." Then he ran to a table and brought back four books, saying, "These books are the wisdom which a number of countries are applauding today. This book or wisdom here is applauded by many in France; this one by many in Germany; this one by some in Holland; and this one by some in Britain."

He then went on to say, "If you care to see it, I will cause these four books to shine before your eyes." Whereupon he poured out and projected around them the glory of his reputation, and soon the books shone as though with light. But the light immediately vanished from before our eyes.

At that point we asked, "What are you presently writing?" And he replied that he was presently extracting and elucidating from his stores of knowledge points which were matters of the most interior wisdom, being in summary the following: 1. Whether nature is a product of life, or life a product of nature. 2. Whether a center is the product of an expanse, or an expanse the product of a center. 3. How this applies to the center and expanse of nature and life.

[4] Having said this, he sat down again at the table, while we walked around in his forum, which was quite large. He had a candle on the table, because there was no daylight from the sun in the room, but a nocturnal, lunar light. And what surprised me, the candle seemed to move all about there and so cast its light - although, because the wick was not trimmed, it provided little illumination. Moreover, as he wrote, we saw images in various forms flying from the table on to the walls, which in that nocturnal lunar light looked like beautiful birds of India. But when we opened the door and let in daylight from the sun, behold, in that light they looked like birds of the evening, having net-like wings. For what he was writing were semblances of truth, which by his confirmations became fallacies, which he had ingeniously woven together into logical series.

[5] After witnessing this, we went over to the table and asked him what he was writing now.

"I am dealing," he said, "with the first point, as to whether nature is a product of life, or life a product of nature." And he remarked in regard to it that he could confirm either one and make it to be true; but that because he harbored something in him that made him afraid, he dared to confirm only that nature is a product of life, meaning that it is derived from life, and not that life is a product of nature, or derived from nature.

We asked amiably what it was that he harbored within to make him afraid.

He replied that it was the possibility of his being labeled by the clergy an adherent of naturalism and thus an atheist, and by the laity a man of unsound reason, since both clergy and laity consist of people who either believe in accordance with a blind faith or see in accordance with the sight of those who defend it.

[6] However, being moved then by a certain indignation out of zeal for the truth, we addressed him, saying, "Friend, you are greatly deceived. Your wisdom, which lies in the ingeniousness of your writing, has led you astray, and the glory of your reputation has induced you to confirm what you do not believe. Do you not know that the human mind is capable of being elevated above sensual appearances, which are appearances in the thoughts from the bodily senses, and that when it is elevated, it sees such things as have to do with life above, and such things as have to do with nature below? What is life but love and wisdom? And what is nature but a vessel of these by which they work their effects or ends? Can these two be one other than as a principal and instrumental cause? Can light be one with the eye? Or sound with the ear? Where do the powers of these senses come from except from life, and their forms except from nature?

"What is the human body but an organ of life? Are not each and all elements in it organically formed to produce the effects that love wills and the understanding thinks? Are not the organs of the body from nature, and the love and thought from life? Are these not entirely distinct from each other?

"Raise the sight of your genius yet a little higher, and you will see that to be affected and think are properties of life; and that the capacity to be affected derives from love, and to think, from wisdom, and both of these from life - for, as we said, love and wisdom are life.

"If you raise the faculty of your understanding a little higher still, you will see that no love or wisdom is possible unless somewhere it has an origin, and that its origin is love itself and wisdom itself, thus life itself; and these are God, from whom comes nature."

[7] Afterwards we spoke with him about his second point, as to whether a center is the product of an expanse, or an expanse the product of a center. And we asked why he was discussing this.

He replied that he was doing it in order to draw a conclusion concerning the center and expanse of nature and life, thus concerning the origin of the one and the other. When we asked then what his thinking was, he answered in regard to this in the same way as before, that he could confirm either one, but that for fear of losing his reputation he was confirming that an expanse is the product of a center, or in other words, derived from the center - "even though I know," he said, "that there was something prior to the sun, and this everywhere in the universe, and that these things flowed of themselves into an order, thus into centers."

[8] But then again out of an indignant zeal we spoke to him and said, "Friend, you are insane."

And when he heard it, he pushed his chair back from the table and regarded us timidly; after which he turned to us his ear, but laughing as he did so.

Nevertheless we continued, saying, "What is more insane than to say that the center comes from the expanse. We interpret your center to mean the sun, and your expanse to mean the universe, thus that the universe came into being without a sun. Does the sun not produce nature and all its properties, which are dependent solely on the heat and light emanating from the sun and conveyed through the atmospheres? Where were these before? But we will tell you where they originated later on.

"The atmospheres, and all things on the earth - are they not like surfaces, and the sun their center? What would all these things be without the sun? Could they for one instant endure? So, then, what would all these things have been before the sun? Could they have endured? Is not continued existence a continual coming into existence? Consequently, since the continued existence of all things of nature depends on the sun, it follows that their coming into existence does, too. Everyone sees this and acknowledges it from his own observation.

[9] "Does not something subsequent as it comes into existence also continue in existence from something prior? If the surface were prior, and the center subsequent, would not the prior then subsist from the subsequent - which is, however, contrary to laws of order?

"How can subsequent things produce prior ones? Or outer ones inner ones? Or grosser ones finer ones? How then can surfaces which form an expanse possibly produce centers? Who does not see that this is contrary to laws of nature?

"We have advanced these arguments from an analysis of reason, to confirm that an expanse arises from a center, and not the reverse, even though everyone who thinks rightly sees this without these arguments.

"You said that the expanse flowed together into a center of itself. Was it by chance, then, that it flowed into such a marvelous and astounding order that one thing exists for the sake of another, and each and all things for the sake of man and his eternal life? Is nature able to act from some love by means of some wisdom to produce such effects? Is nature also able to form men into angels and angels into a heaven? Contemplate this and think about it, and your idea of nature's arising from nature will fall to the ground."

[10] After that we asked him what he had thought and what he thought now in respect to the third point, regarding the center and expanse of nature and life. Did he think the center and expanse of life to be the same as the center and expanse of nature?

He said that he hesitated. He had previously thought that the inner activity of nature was life; that from it originated the love and wisdom which essentially form a person's life; and that it was the fire of the sun, acting through its heat and light by means of the atmospheres, which produced these. But now, he said, from what he was hearing about people's eternal life, he was in a state of vacillation, and this vacillation carried his mind sometimes upward, sometimes down. When it was carried upward, he acknowledged a center of which he had previously known nothing; and when down, he saw the center which he had believed to be the only one; thus thinking that life is from the center of which he had previously known nothing, and that nature is from the center which he had before believed to be the only one, each center having its own expanse surrounding it.

[11] To this we said, well and good, provided he was willing also to regard the center and expanse of nature as being from the center and expanse of life, and not the other way around.

We then told him that above the angelic heaven there is a sun which is pure love, fiery in appearance like the sun of the world; and that it is owing to the warmth emanating from that sun that angels and men have will and love, and owing to the light from it that they have understanding and wisdom. We said, too, that such things as are matters of life are called spiritual, and that such things as emanate from the sun of the world are vessels of life and are called natural. Furthermore, that the expanse of the center of life is called the spiritual world, which subsists from its sun, and that the expanse of nature is called the natural world, which subsists from its sun.

Now, because love and wisdom cannot have spaces and times ascribed to them, we said, but instead of these states, the expanse surrounding the sun of the angelic heaven is not dimensional, but yet is present in the dimensional expanse of the natural sun, and in living objects there according to their reception of it, and this in accordance with their forms.

[12] However, at that point he asked what produced the fire of the sun of the world or of nature.

We replied that it originated from the sun of the angelic heaven, which is not a ball of fire, but the Divine love most immediately emanating from God, who is love itself. Then because he wondered at this, we demonstrated it as follows:

"In its essence, love is spiritual fire. So it is, that fire in the Word, in its spiritual sense, symbolizes love. That is why priests in temples pray that heavenly fire may fill people's hearts, by which they mean love. In the Tabernacle among the Israelites, the fire of the altar and the fire of the lampstand represented nothing else but Divine love. The warmth of the blood, or the vital heat in people and in animals generally, is from no other origin than the love which forms their life. It is in consequence of this that a person is set on fire, grows hot, and bursts into flames whenever his love is roused up into zeal, anger and rage. Since it is spiritual heat, or love, which produces the natural heat in people, even so as to ignite and inflame their faces and limbs, it can accordingly be seen from this that the fire of the natural sun arose from no other origin than the fire of the spiritual sun, which is Divine love.

[13] "Now because an expanse arises from its center, and not the reverse, as we said earlier, and the center of life, which is the sun of the angelic heaven, is the Divine love most immediately emanating from God, who is in the midst of that sun; and because from it arose the expanse of that center, which is called the spiritual world; and because from that sun arose the sun of the world, and from this its expanse, which is called the natural world, it is apparent that the universe was created by God alone."

After that we departed, with him accompanying us outside the grounds of his forum. And he spoke with us about heaven and hell, and about the Divine superintendence, with a new sagacity of acumen.

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