8942. 'For if you move your chisel over it' means if a product of the proprium or self. This is clear from the meaning of 'chisel' as counterfeit truth, thus a product of the self. For a chisel is a piece of iron used to carve and shape figures out of stones, and therefore the human self is meant here since this shapes things which are to compose religion, to make them look like the truth. Instead of the word 'chisel' some places elsewhere have '[a piece of] iron', while others elsewhere have 'axe', as in Deuteronomy 27:5; Joshua 8:30-31; 1 Kings 6:7; Isaiah 44:10-12; Hosea 13:2; Jeremiah 10:3-4; and these tools mean such things as are implements of self-intelligence used for fabrication.

5478. 'Because the interpreter was between them' means that at this time spiritual things are understood in a completely different manner. This is clear from the meaning of 'the interpreter was between them' as the fact that spiritual things are understood in a different manner. For an interpreter translates the language of one person into the language of another, and so enables the perceptions in the one person's mind to be understood by another person. This explains why 'the interpreter was between them' means that at that time spiritual things are understood in a completely different manner, that is, by those in possession of truths known to the Church which have not yet been joined through good to the internal man. The fact that the truths known to the Church are understood by those governed by good - that is among those with whom such truths have been joined to good - in a manner completely different from that in which those who are not governed by good understand them does indeed seem to be a paradox; but for all that, it is the truth. For truths are understood in a spiritual manner by those who are governed by good because such people dwell in spiritual light, whereas truths are understood in a natural manner by those who are not governed by good because they dwell in natural light. Consequently those who are governed by good are constantly linking truths to the truths they already have, whereas those who are not governed by good link very many illusions as well as falsities to the truths they have. The reason for this is that the truths present with people governed by good reach into heaven, whereas the truths present with those who are not governed by good do not reach into heaven. Consequently the truths present with those governed by good are filled out, whereas the ones present with those who are not governed by good are virtually empty. That fullness or emptiness is not seen by man as long as he lives in the world; but the angels see it. If man knew how much of heaven existed within truths that have been joined to good he would have a completely different conception of faith.