5817. 'And so it was, when we went up to your servant my father' means a raising up to spiritual good. This is clear from the meaning of 'going up' as a raising up, dealt with below; and from the representation of Israel, to whom 'father' refers here, as spiritual good from the natural, dealt with in 4286, 4598. A raising up of the kind meant here by 'going up is a movement towards more internal things; here it is a raising up from the truths in the natural, which are represented by 'Jacob's ten sons', to spiritual good from the natural, represented by 'Israel'. For there is an exterior natural and there is an interior natural, 5497, 5649. The interior natural holds spiritual good, which is 'Israel', while the exterior natural holds the truths known to the Church, which are 'Jacob's sons', and therefore 'going up to their father' means a raising up of these to spiritual good.

5649. 'And they said, Over the matter of the silver put back in our pouches [at the beginning] are we brought to [this place]' means that because truth in the exterior natural appears to be something freely given, they were being made subservient. This is clear from the meaning of 'the silver put back' as truth freely given, dealt with in 5530, 5624; from the meaning of 'the pouch' as the opening to the exterior natural, dealt with in 5497; and from the meaning of 'brought to' as being linked and made subservient to, dealt with immediately above in 5648.

[2] The implications of all this are as follows: Because it had been perceived that the facts present in the exterior man which held truths within them had been freely given and were therefore being led on to become joined to the internal, which would make them subservient to it, it was consequently perceived that, as stated just above, they would be deprived of their freedom and so of all the delight that life holds within itself. But man has no conception of such a thing, that is to say, of its being perceived that facts holding truths within them can be given freely and that this happens in the natural, in either the exterior part or the interior part of it. The reason he has no conception of this is that he does not enjoy any kind of perception like that, for he does not have the vaguest idea about what is given to him freely, let alone about what is stored away in the exterior natural and what in the interior natural. The common reason why he does not have any perception of this is that his heart is set on worldly and earthly things, not on celestial and spiritual ones, and therefore he has no belief in any influence coming from the Lord by way of heaven and so no belief whatever in the gift of any such things to him. Yet in actual fact all the truth which he arrives at by the use of reason based on factual knowledge and which he imagines he arrives at by his own power of understanding is something that is given to him. And man has even less ability to perceive whether that truth is stored away in the exterior natural or in the interior natural, because he is ignorant of the fact that the natural has two parts, namely an exterior part which leans towards the external senses and an interior part which leans away from these and turns towards the rational.

[3] Since man has no knowledge of any of these matters he cannot have any perception at all regarding such ideas; for acquaintance with a reality must come first if there is to be any perception about it. But angelic communities are properly acquainted with and have a right perception of those matters. They are acquainted with and perceive not only what is given them freely but also in what place this exists, as the following experience makes clear: When any spirit who is moved by good, and therefore has the ability to do so, enters some angelic community, he enters at the same time into all the knowledge and intelligence belonging to this community, which he had not possessed before. At such a time he is not aware of anything different from this - that he was already in possession of such knowledge and understanding, and through his own deliberation. But when he stops to reflect he realizes that it is something freely given him by the Lord through that angelic community. He also knows, from the angelic community where he is, whether that truth exists in the exterior natural or in the interior natural; for there are angelic communities situated in the exterior natural, and there are those situated in the interior natural. But their natural is not like man's natural; rather it is a natural that is spiritual - one that has been made spiritual by having become joined and made subservient to the spiritual.

[4] From all this one may see that the matters mentioned here in the internal sense describe what actually happens in the next life. That is to say, those there are quite aware of what is freely given them and also of where it is stored away, even though man at the present day knows nothing at all about such matters. In ancient times however those who belonged to the Church did know about them; their factual knowledge told them about such matters, and so did their religious teachings. They were people of a more internal frame of mind; but since those times people have become progressively more externally minded, so much so that at the present day they live in the body, thus in what is the most external. A sign of this is seen in the fact that people do not even know what the spiritual is or what the internal is; and they do not believe even in the existence of such realities. Indeed people have moved so far away from things on a more internal level to what is most external within the body that they do not even believe in the reality of a life after death, or in the existence of heaven or hell. Indeed because of their departure from things of a more internal level into what is most external they have become so stupid. So far as spiritual realities are concerned, as to believe that man's life is similar to that of beasts, so that in death man is no different from them. And what is so surprising, the learned believe these kinds of things more than the simple; and anyone whose belief is different from theirs is thought by them to be a simpleton.