6075. 'Both we and our fathers' means that this was so since the time of the ancients. This is clear from the meaning of 'fathers' as those who belonged to the ancient Churches, dealt with in 6050. In the Word there are many places referring to the Jews and Israelites in which their fathers are spoken of in a praiseworthy manner. People who confine themselves to the sense of the letter do not take 'fathers in those places to mean anybody other than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and also the sons of Jacob. But in the internal sense 'fathers', in a good sense, is used to mean not them but those who belonged to the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood and those who belonged to the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood. Members of both were called 'fathers' because the Church came down from them and things of the Church were derived from them.

[2] 'Fathers' is used in Moses to mean those belonging to the Ancient Churches,

Your fathers Jehovah delighted to love, and He chose their seed after them. Deuteronomy 10:15.

And in the same author,

Remember the days of old, understand the Years of generation after generation. When the Most High gave to the nations an inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel. But when Jeshurun became fat he forsook God. They sacrifice to demons, to gods [whom they do not know, to new ones] that have come from near by and that your fathers did not fear. ¹ Deuteronomy 32:7-8, 15, 17.

These words appear in the prophetical Song of Moses, in which verses 7-15 refer to the Ancient Church and Verses 15-44 to the descendants of Jacob. The state of the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood is meant by 'the days of old', and the state of the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood by 'the years of generation after generation'. Their state of good is meant by 'an inheritance which the Most High gave to the nations', and their state of truth by 'the Most High separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel', which 'number', being 'twelve', means all the truths of faith in their entirety, see 577, 2089, 2129 (end), 2130 (end), 3272, 3858, 3913. From this it is evident that 'fathers' means those who belonged to the ancient Churches. A similar meaning exists in the following places:

In Isaiah,

Our holy house, and our splendour, where our fathers praised You, has been made into a blaze of fire. Isaiah 64:11.

In Jeremiah,

Did not your father eat and drink, yet execute judgement and righteousness? Then all went well for him. Jeremiah 22:15.

In the same prophet,

They have sinned against Jehovah, the habitation of righteousness and the hope of their fathers. Jeremiah 50:7.

In David,

O God, we have heard with our ears, our fathers have told us the work You worked in their days, in the days of old. Psalms 44:1.

'Fathers' is used in the same way in Daniel 11:14, 37-38. The fact that those who belonged to the ancient Churches are meant in these places by 'fathers' is not apparent in the sense of the letter; it is seen only from the internal sense in which the Church, its forms of good, and its truths are the subject. Furthermore the Church itself - being the heavenly marriage, that is, the marriage of goodness and truth - is called 'father' in the Word in respect to goodness and 'mother' in respect to truth, 3707, 5581.

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3272. 'Twelve princes of their peoples' means all the first and foremost features of that spiritual Church. This is clear from the meaning of 'twelve' as all things of faith and so of the Church, dealt with in 577, 2089, 2129 (end), 2130 (end); from the meaning of 'princes' as first and foremost features, dealt with in 1482, 2089; and from the meaning of 'peoples' as those who are governed by truths, dealt with in 1259, 1260, and so those who belong to the spiritual Church, for they are said to be those with whom truths predominate. The fact that all numbers in the Word mean real things becomes quite clear from the number twelve which occurs so many times. Whenever that number is used in the Word it means all things. For example, the twelve tribes in the Old Testament and the twelve apostles in the New mean all things of faith, and so all things of the Church. Here 'twelve princes' accordingly means all the first and foremost features of that Church which are represented by just so many sons of Ishmael.

[2] That the number twelve means those things becomes clear from what has been introduced in the places mentioned above, as well as from the following in the Word: In John,

I heard the number of the sealed out of every tribe of Israel - twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Gad, and so on. Revelation 7:4-6, and following verses.

Here 'twelve thousand sealed out of every tribe' means nothing else than that everyone who receives faith, that is, who receives the good that accompanies it, is saved. In the same book,

A woman encircled with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Revelation 12:1.

'A woman' stands for the Church, 252, 253, 'the sun' for celestial love, 'the moon' for spiritual love, 30-38, 1529, 1530, 2441, 2495. 'Twelve stars' stands for all things of faith - 'stars' being cognitions of good and truth, which are matters of faith, 2495, 2849.

[3] In the same book,

The holy city New Jerusalem, having twelve gates, and above the gates twelve angels, and names written which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. He measured the city with the measuring rod, twelve thousand stadia. And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits (twelve twelves), which is the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. The twelve gates were twelve pearls. Revelation 21:12, 14, 16-17, 21.

Here nothing else is meant by the holy city than the Lord's spiritual kingdom, and by the gates, wall, and foundations the things that constitute charity and faith, all of which things are meant by the frequently mentioned number twelve. The fact that neither the twelve tribes nor the twelve apostles are meant literally may be recognized by anyone. In the same book,

In the middle of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that, was the tree of life bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month. Revelation 22:2.

'Twelve fruits' means all things of charity.

[4] In Matthew,

Jesus said, Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on His throne of glory, will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28.

Here 'the apostles' is not used to mean the apostles, nor 'thrones' to mean thrones, nor 'tribes' tribes, but matters of faith in their entirety, see 2129. Furthermore when the twelve tribes are referred to in the Old Testament Word they mean all things of the Church. The same applies to the twelve stones set according to the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, in the Urim and Thummim, Exodus 28:21; to the twelve loaves of the presence that were laid out on the table, Leviticus 24:5-6; and so on with every other reference to twelve. Also the names themselves of the twelve sons of Jacob or Israel contain all things of faith, as will be seen in the Lord's Divine mercy in Chapters 29, 30 below.