74. Laten we ons nu richten op enige ervaringen. Dat engelen menselijke gedaantes zijn, heb ik duizenden keren gezien, want ik heb met hen gesproken als mens tot mens, soms met één, soms met een aantal bij elkaar, en ik heb absoluut niets in hun gedaante gezien dat verschilde met die van een mens. Soms heb ik mij erover verwonderd dat zij zo waren. Opdat men niet zou zeggen dat dit een zinsbegoocheling of een hallucinatie was, werd mij toegestaan ze te zien terwijl ik klaar wakker was en in vol beheer van al mijn lichamelijke zintuigen en terwijl ik in een staat van heldere gewaarwording verkeerde. Inderdaad heb ik hun heel vaak verteld dat de mensen in de Christelijke wereld in een dusdanige volslagen onwetendheid verkeren ten opzichte van engelen en geesten, dat zij geloven dat deze een verstand zonder vorm zijn, zelfs pure gedachten, waar zij zich geen voorstelling van konden maken, behalve als van iets vluchtigs met daarin iets levends. Omdat ze hen dus niets menselijks toeschrijven behalve het denkvermogen, geloven ze dat zij niet kunnen zien, omdat ze geen ogen hebben en niet kunnen horen, omdat ze geen oren hebben en niet kunnen spreken, omdat ze geen mond en geen tong hebben.

[2] De reactie van de engelen hierop was dat zij wisten dat velen op aarde dit geloofden en dat het vooral voorkomt bij de geleerden en, wat hen verwonderde, onder de geestelijken. De reden was, zeiden ze, dat de geleerden, de voorlopers, die het eerst een dergelijke voorstelling over engelen en geesten opperden, hun gedachten over deze zaken baseerden op indrukken van de lichamelijke zintuigen van de uiterlijke mens. Zij die echter hier hun denken op baseren en niet op het innerlijke licht en op het algemeen ingeboren denkbeeld, kunnen niet anders dan dergelijke denkbeelden verzinnen. Want de zintuigen van de uiterlijke mens nemen niets anders op dan wat van de natuur komt en niets van wat boven de natuur is, dus helemaal niets van de geestelijke wereld. Van deze voorlopers, als leiders, werden deze verkeerde ideeën over engelen naar anderen verspreid, die niet voor zichzelf dachten maar de ideeën van hun leiders volgden. Zij die eerst hun geloof op de ideeën van anderen baseren en dit naderhand met hun verstand beschouwen, kunnen daar niet gemakkelijk weer van terugkomen en berusten over het algemeen in de bevestiging daarvan.

[3] De engelen zeiden verder dat de simpelen van geloof en hart dit. idee over de engelen niet hebben, maar zich deze voorstellen als mensen van de hemel, omdat zij hetgeen ze uit de hemel ingeplant hebben gekregen, door geleerdheid niet hebben laten uitblussen, zij begrijpen evenmin iets wat geen vorm heeft. Om dezelfde reden worden engelen in kerken, hetzij gebeeldhouwd of geschilderd, altijd als mensen uitgebeeld. Over wat uit de hemel wordt ingeplant zeiden ze dat dit het Goddelijke is wat invloeit en inwerkt bij degenen die in het goede van geloof en leven verkeren.

69. Verse 15. And His feet like unto burnished brass, as if glowing in a furnace, signifies the ultimate of Divine order, which is the natural, full of Divine love. This is evident from the signification of "feet," as being the natural (See Arcana Coelestia 2162, 3147, 3761, 3986, 4280, 4938-4952); therefore, in reference to the Lord, as meaning the ultimate of Divine order, because that is the natural; also from the signification of "burnished brass," or brass polished, as being natural good (of which presently); and from the signification of "glowing," as being, in reference to the Lord, what is from Divine love (See n. 10055). It is said, "as if glowing in a furnace," in order that the Divine love in the greatest degree and in its fullness may be represented, for the Divine is in its fullness when it is in its ultimate, and the ultimate is the natural (See above, n. 66).

From this it is clear that by "His feet like unto burnished brass, as if glowing in a furnace," is signified the ultimate of Divine order, which is the natural, full of Divine love. These things, as well as the preceding, are described by comparisons; as that "His head and His hairs were white as white wool, as snow," and that "His feet were like unto burnished brass, as if glowing in a furnace;" but it is to be noted, that all comparisons in the Word are significative, for they are from correspondences in like manner as the things themselves (See Arcana Coelestia 3579, 4599, 8989).

[2] In reference to the Lord, "feet" signify the ultimate of Divine order, and this is the natural, because heaven is heaven from the Lord's Divine Human, and from this it is that heaven in the whole complex represents one man; and as there are three heavens, that the highest heaven represents the head, the middle heaven the body, and the lowest heaven the feet. The Divine that makes the highest heaven is called the celestial Divine, but the Divine that makes the middle heaven is called the spiritual Divine, and the Divine that makes the lowest heaven is called the natural Divine from the spiritual and celestial. This makes it evident why the Lord is here described in respect to His Divine Human, which is the Son of man seen in the midst of the lampstands, not only as regards His garments, but also as to His head, breast, and feet. (That the Son of man is the Lord as to His Divine Human, see above, n. 63; and that the "lampstands" are heaven, see n. 62, 63. But since these things are arcana hitherto unknown in the world, and yet must be understood in order that the internal sense of this and the following parts of this prophetical book may be comprehended, the particulars have been explained specifically in the work on Heaven and Hell; as

That the Divine Human of the Lord makes Heaven, n. 7-12, 78-86, seq.;

That on this account Heaven in the whole Complex represents one Man, n. 59-77;

That there are Three Heavens, and that the highest refers to the head, the middle to the body, and the lowest to the feet, n. Heaven and Hell 29-40.)

When this is understood it can be seen what is signified in the Word by "the feet of Jehovah" or "of the Lord," namely, the ultimate of Divine order, or the natural; and since the external of the church, of worship, and of the Word is the ultimate of Divine order in the church, and is the natural, this is specifically signified by "the feet of Jehovah" or "of the Lord."

[3] Because of this signification of "the feet of Jehovah" or "of the Lord," therefore when the Lord was seen as an Angel by the prophets elsewhere, He appeared in like manner.

Thus by Daniel:

I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with gold of Uphaz; His body was like the tarshish stone, and His eyes as lamps of fire, and His arms and His feet like the brightness of polished brass (Daniel 10:5-6).

In like manner the cherubs, by which is meant the Lord in respect to providence and protection (See Arcana Coelestia 9277, 9509, 9673), were seen by Ezekiel:

Their feet sparkled like the brightness of polished brass (Ezekiel 1:7).

The Lord was seen in like manner as an Angel as described further on in Revelation:

I saw an Angel coming down out of heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow was about His head, and His face was as the sun, and His feet as pillars of fire (Revelation 10:1).

As the Lord appeared in this manner as to His feet, therefore under His feet there was seen by some of the sons of Israel:

As it were a work of sapphire stone, and as it were the substance of heaven for clearness (Exodus 24:10).

Their vision of the Lord was not as to the feet, but "under the feet," because they were not in, but under, the external of the church, of worship, and of the Word (See The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem 248).

[4] Since "the feet of Jehovah" or "of the Lord" signify the ultimate of Divine order, and this specifically is the external of the church, of worship, and of the Word, therefore this external is called in the Word "His footstool," as in Isaiah:

The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, to beautify the place of My sanctuary; I will make the place of My feet honorable. And they shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet (Isaiah 60:13-14).

In the same:

Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool (Isaiah 66:1).

In Jeremiah:

God doth not remember His footstool in the day of anger (Lamentations 2:1).

In David:

Worship Jehovah at His footstool (Psalms 99:5).

We will go into His tabernacles; we will worship at His footstool (Psalms 132:7).

In Nahum:

Of Jehovah, the clouds are the dust of His feet (Nahum 1:3).

"Cloud" is the external of the Word, or the Word in respect to the letter (See above, n. 36). Because "cloud" is the external of the Word, it is also the external of the church and of worship; for the church and worship are from the Word. "Clouds" are called "dust of His feet," because those things that are in the sense of the letter of the Word, which is natural, appear scattered.

5583. 'And Judah said to him' means the good which existed in the Church. This is clear from the representation of 'Judah' as the good existing in the Church, dealt with in 3654. The fact that now Judah speaks about Benjamin, whereas previously, in verses Genesis 42:36, 37 of the previous chapter, Reuben was the one to do so, is an arcanum which only the internal sense can bring to light. The same applies to the fact that when Reuben spoke about Benjamin, Jacob is referred to in Verse 36 of the previous chapter as Jacob, whereas now, when Judah is speaking about Benjamin, Jacob is referred to in verses 6, 8, 11 as Israel. No one can deny that some such arcanum lies within this, but what that arcanum is cannot possibly be known simply from the story told in the sense of the letter, as is also the case in other places where Jacob is sometimes referred to as Jacob, and at other times as Israel, 4286. The actual arcanum embodied in all this will in the Lord's Divine mercy be stated in what follows. The reason Judah is the speaker now is that the subject is the good of spiritual truth which needs to be acquired, 5582. Therefore here Judah, who represents the good existing with the Church, is the one to speak to Israel, who represents the good of spiritual truth. He also offers himself as a surety for Benjamin, who represents the intermediary; for the intermediary must be joined by means of good to what has to be acquired.