9972. Later I saw spirits from the same planet in a place below them, and I talked to these spirits as well. But they were idolaters, for they worshipped an idol of stone which resembled a human being, though not a beautiful one. (It should be remembered that all when they first enter the next life possess worship similar to their worship in the world, but that they are gradually drawn away from it. The reason why this should be so is that all worship remains embedded in the inward parts of a person's life, from which it cannot be taken away and rooted out except gradually.) On seeing all this I was allowed to tell them that they ought to adore the living, not the lifeless. To this they replied that they knew God was a living God and not stone, but that it was when they beheld the stone resembling a human being that they thought of the living God, and that there was no other way in which they could focus their minds on and have a definite idea of the invisible God. At this point I was allowed to tell them that they could focus their minds on and have a definite idea of the invisible God if they focused them on the Lord who is the visible God, and thus that a person can be joined to the invisible God in thought and affection, consequently in faith and love, when he is joined to the Lord, but not in any other way.